Zakir Naik’s attack on Husain (A.S.) was three-pronged:
- He dismissed the battle of Karbala as a mere political battle
- He called Yazeed (L.A.), the murderer of the Prophet’s (S.A.W.W.) family, Razi Allah Ta’ala Anhu
- He held Imam Husain (A.S.) and Yazeed (L.A.) equal, nauzobillah
Similarly my response will be three-pronged too.
- The Prophet’s (S.A.W.W.) love for his grandson, his reaction to news about Karbala and the disctinction between good and bad
- I’ll post a little analysis of the battle of Karbala, who was the perpetrator and who was the sufferer
- Karbala in the Quraan
And maybe a fourth one:
- Yazeed’s (L.A.) actions after Karbala
This post will be a combined extract of two of my previous posts. Also, please read this first if you haven’t already.
Muhammad’s Love For Husain
The Prophet (S.A.W.W.) was invited to dinner. As he was walking with his companions, he saw his little grandson, Imam Husain (A.S.) playing in the valley. The Prophet (S.A.W.) went forward to grab him, but he ran away childishly. With a gentle smile on his face, the Prophet (S.A.W.W.) started running after him until he finally caught him. He then put a hand around the Husain’s neck, another hand under his chin, and kissed him. The Prophet (S.A.W.W.) then said:
“Husain is from me and I am from Husain. May Allah love that person who loves Husain.”
Source:
- Ansab al-Ashraf by Ahmad ibne Jabir ibne Al-Bladhori
Zaid, the son of Harith, narrates:
I wanted to go see the Prophet (S.A.W.W.) regarding a task. I went to his house at night and knocked on the door. The Prophet (S.A.W.W.) opened the door, while he had something hidden under his cloak. I told him about my task and when we were finished, I asked him: “O’ the Messenger of Allah, what do you have under your cloak?”
He opened his cloak and showed Hasan (A.S.) and Husain (A.S.). He said:
“These are my children and the children of my daughter.”
At that moment the Prophet (S.A.W.W.) looked towards the sky and said:
“O Allah! You are aware that I love these two children, so You love them too, and love those who love these two.”
Source:
- Tarikh Al-Tabari
Salman Farsi has narrated that the Prophet (S.A.W.W.) said about Imam Hasan (A.S.) and Imam Husain (A.S.):
“Whoever loves my children Hasan and Husain, (then) I love him; and whomever I love, Allah loves him; and whoever Allah loves, he will enter a heavenly state filled with blessings. However, he who shows enmity towards the two and oppresses them, I will consider him as my enemy; and whomever I consider an enemy, Allah will be his enemy, and will throw him in the hell fire where he will suffer forever.“
Source:
- Tabaqat ibne Sa’ad
Other events during the Prophet’s (S.A.W.W.) life include when Imam Husain (A.S.) climbed on his back while he was in prostration and leading the prayers in Masjid-e-Nabawi (Prophet’s Mosque). The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.W.) lengthened the prostration until Imam Husain (A.S.) got off of his own will!
On another occasion, he was delivering a sermon in the same mosque on his mimber, when Imam Husain (A.S.) entered the mosque and tripped on his way towards the Prophet (S.A.W.W.). The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.W.) got off his mimber and rushed and picked up Husain (A.S.). He then climbed back on the mimber and finished the sermon with tears in his eyes and Husain (A.S.) on his lap.
Another event is that on the occasion of Eid, both Hasan (A.S.) and Husain (A.S.) came to the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.W.), wearing new clothes but looking sad. The Prophet (S.A.W.W.) inquired about the reason of sadness to which they replied that they did not have a camel to ride like the other children. The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.W.) then got down on his knees and asked both children to climb on his back and hold his long hair as the reins!
Round and round he went in the courtyard of Masjid-e-Nabawi but still the children looked sad. He then inquired again about the reason of sadness. The children replied that their camel did not make any sounds, to which the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.W.) starting producing sounds like a camel.
Abu Bakar, standing close by, remarked:
“O Hasan and Husain, what a wonderful ride you have!”
To this, the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.W.) replied:
“Don’t say that. Say what wonderful riders I have!“
The Prophet’s (S.A.W.W.) Reaction To News Of Karbala
Whenever the Prophet’s (S.A.W.W.) sorrow was hard on him, he would take Husain in his lap and bring him along to the mosque, to the gathering of Sahaba while crying. His tears falling, he would display to them the infant Husain with the sand of Karbala in his hand and say:
“My nation (Ummah) will kill him, and this is the dirt of Karbala.”
Or he would take the dirt smell it and cry, with the mention of his murder and death, saying:
“The smell of Karb wa Balaa (sorrow and trial).”
Or would say:
“By The One who owns my soul, it saddens me: Who is this who kills Husain after me?“
Or would say:
“Karbala: the land of Karb (deep sorrow) and Balaa (painful trial).”
Or put Husain on his lap, with his red dirt in his hand, while crying and say:
“I wish I could express my self! Who kills you after me?“
Sources:
- Musnad Ahmad Ibne Hanbal, Imam Ahmad bine Hanbal
- Musnad Abu-Ya’la, Abu-Ya’la Al-Mousulli
- Musannaf Ibn Abi Sheiba
- Al-Khasaes, al-Nisaai
- Saheeh Al-Tirmizi
- Mushkil Al-Athar, Al-Tahawi
- Al-’Ilal, Al-Darqutni
- Huliat Al-Abrar, Abu-Naeem
- Al-Dalael, Al-Bayhaqi
- and many others via Ayesha, daughter of Abu Bakar
Narration by Ya’la bin ‘Ubaid, Musa al-Jahani, Salih bin Arbad al-Nakhei, Umme Salmah said:
Husain entered on the Prophet (S.A.W.W.), while I was sitting at the door. I saw in the hand of the Prophet (S.A.W.W.) something he turned over while (Husain was) sleeping on his stomach. I said:
“Oh messenger of Allah, I looked and saw you turning something over in your hand when the child was sleeping on your stomach and your tears were pouring.”
He said:
“Jibraeel (Gabriel) came to me with the sand upon which he will be killed. And he informed me that my nation (Ummah) will kill him.”
Source:
- Al-Musannaf, by Al-Hafidh Abu Bakr Bin Abi Shaibah, vol 12
Narrated Ali bin Mohammad, Uthman bin Muqsim, al-Muqbari, from Ayesha:
While the Messenger of Allah (S.A.W.W.) was lying down, Husain (A.S.) came crawling towards him so I moved him away from the Prophet (S.A.W.W.) and I got up to do something. But Husain (A.S.) got close to the Prophet (S.A.W.W.) and he woke up crying. So I said:
“What makes you cry?”
He said:
“Jibraeel showed me the sand on which Husain will be killed. The anger of Allah is great on whomever sheds his blood.“
He opened his hands, in which was a grab of sand. He said:
“Oh, Ayesha, by the One who has my soul is in His hands, it saddens me! Who is this from my nation (Ummah) who kills Husain after I am gone?“
Source:
- Al-Taba’qat al-Kubra, Ibne Saad (Tabaqat Ibne Saad)
When Ali (A.S.) passed by Karbala in his march to Siffin and lined up with Nainawa, a village on the Euphrates, he stopped and called one of the men:
“Tell Aba-Abdillah (Husain ) what this land is called.”
He said:
“Karbala.”
Then Ali (A.S.) cried until the earth was wet from his tears. He then narrated:
I entered on the messenger of Allah (S.A.W.W.) and he was crying. So I asked what made him cry? He said:
“Gabriel was with me, just now, and informed me: that my son Husain will be killed at the banks of Furaat (River Euphrates) at a place called Karbala. Then Gabriel grabbed a handful of dirt and let me smell it. So I could not help it, my eyes overflowed.”
Sources:
- Tabaqaat Ibne Saad
- Masnad Ahmed Ibne Hanbal
- Al-Musannaf, Ibne Abi Shaibeh, vol 12
- Al-Moejam Al-Kabeer, Al-Tabarani, vol 1
- Tareekh Al-Shamm, Ibn Asakir
The Distinction Between The Good And The Wretched
The Prophet (S.A.W.W.) said:
“Through me, you (people) came to awareness, with Ali you found the way and were guided, all good came to you through Hasan, however, your happiness and wretchedness is with Husain. Be aware that Husain is one of the doors of paradise. Whoever shows enmity towards him will be deprived from the scent of paradise.“
Source:
- Morooj al-Dhahab and Ma’adin al-Jawhar, Ali ibn al-Hussian ibn Ali Masoudi, Matba’at al-Sa’adah
So let me conclude by asking Mr. Zakir Naik, where does your allegiance stand? Husain, or Yazeed?
دے صبا جا کے رسولِ عربی کو یہ پیام
اے حضور آپ پہ دنیا کے درود اور سلام
سایہء گنبدِ خِضریٰ میں کہاں تک آرام
اٰٹھیئے اٰٹھیئے کہ عیاں حشر کے ساماں ہیں تمام
غضبِ حضرتِ باری کی فراوانی ہے
سنگِ بنیادِ زمیں کشتیءِ طوفانی ہے
Just love the “Ghazab-e-Hazrat-e-Bari” phrase. It depicts the time when Allah was enraged of His own Will…
228 Responses
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very well-written, complete with references…..
Holy Prophet (S.A.W.W.)’s immense love for his grandchildren is undeniable…one who can love a stranger kid * to an extent that he adapted him and gave him his name , what would be the extent of hs love for his own progeny.. *(Zaid bin harisa)
n i believe u can NOT side with both parties in a two-partied conflict….u can support one of them or stay neutral…u cant support (n praise) both…You cannot run with the hare and hunt with the hounds
finally the post i had been looking forward to for more than a month!
now coming to the point of Yazeed or Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA). I dont think there should be a doubt on this on the minds of muslims: be it shia or sunni. Obviously Yazeed just couldnt match the greatness of Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA) in any possible manner. Amir Muawiah and Yazid took away what was promised to Hazrat Ali (RA). The saddest part of the story was when Amir Muawiah wanted a decision based on shariah…when Hazrat Ali (RA) said that he, himself is the talking Qur’an (i am sure you can narrate this whole incident in a much better way than me). Instead of giving away wat was supposed to be Hazrat Imam Hasan’s (RA), they got him killed. Its such a tragic episode of Islamic history!
It is amazing that the character and deeds of someone like Yazeed (LA) are being defended these days. For three years he ruled, and what did he do? Martyred Hussain (A.S) in the most inhumane way possible, plundered Medina and then went on to plunder the holy city of Mecca. What more freaking proof does anybody need?!
And one more thing, Mr. Zakir Naik is more concerned about Constantinople then the Prophet’s Hadith regarding the greatness of Hussain (A.S). Some of his stances have always been dodgy to say the least.
@Pinky: Indeed!
@KW: Muawiyah, apart from poisoning Imam Hasan (A.S.), is also responsible for the deaths of a lot of companions of the Prophet (S.A.W.W.) He killed Hazrat Ayesha and Hazrat Muhammad Ibne Abi Bakar.
Don’t add “Amir” to Muawiyah yaar. “Amir” is a part of “Amir-ul-Momineen” and Muawiyah does not deserve it, apparent from your comment.
In fact, Muawiyah forced people to call him that from the pulpits, and curse Hazrat Ali (A.S.) during his tenure and this continued till the Bani Umayyah (L.A.) remained in power before the Abassids (L.A.) kicked them out and sent them scurrying off to Spain.
All Bani Umayyah (L.A.) have been bitter enemies of the Bani Hashim (A.S.)
@Raza: Not plunder Makkah but BOMBARD the Ka’abah with fire!
Yazid can’t be written as “Radiullah Tala Anhu” because this term is used for the Prophet[saw] companion only and it means “Agreed with Allah” and it’s part of a quranic Ayah. Their(Sahabas) status was so great infront of Allah that He(SWT) was asking whether the companions are agreed with Him(SWT) or not. Whether Yazid himself killed Hussain(RA) or not, it’s well known fact that there are conflicting stories on both sides so I better remain silence about the things I don’t know rather believing someone blindly.
So in light of above verse and follower of Quran, I have no such caliber and authority to decide whether Ali(RA) was right or Muwaiyah(RA). I believe Allah is much smarter than all of us and He(SWT) knew everything yet HE(SWT) says something like this in Quran.
And know that among you(The companions) is the Messenger of Allah. If he were to obey you in much of the matter, you would be in difficulty, but Allah has endeared to you the faith and has made it pleasing in your hearts and has made hateful to you disbelief, defiance and disobedience. Those are the [rightly] guided.
(49:7)
Muwaiyah(RA) was surely a companion of Muhammad[saw]. Being a Muslim I believe that I am asked to follow what Quran says about the companions (RA) in both Quran and Hadith. I just mentioned Quran because you might not accept hadiths. Yes I would like to quote Ibn-e-Kasir’s witness that what Ali(RA) said about Muwayiah(RA) after Battle of Siffin:
O people, do not hate or talk ill of the leadership of Muáwiya (Radhiallaahu Anhu), for if you loose him it would be such a tragedy as if you see your limbs falling from your bodies
May Allah shows the righteous path.Ameen
i hope you will not censor my post.
Fabulous post, SAWJ! I loved the compilation and the presentation. Dr. Zakir Naik bypassed several learned sunni scholars who condemn Yazeed (L.A) to this day.
One can only guess what his intentions might have been
@Imran: Ibn-e-Kaseer’s witness? I’ll have to see that. Moreover, Hazrat Ali (A.S.) talking good about Muawiyah (L.A.) sounds more like a joke to me. Muwaiyah (L.A.) was never a companion of the Prophet (S.A.W.W.)
Do you know how Imam Nasa’i was killed?
He was reading Ahadees near the Ka’abah, all in the praise of Ali (A.S.). A man got up and asked him to read something in favor of Muwiyah (L.A.) to which he replied that “Woh bakhsha hi jaaye to bari baat hai!”
The man got up and stabbed Imam Nasai and he succumbed to his injuries on the way home.
I’m thinking about doing a post on ‘noble’ Muawiyah (L.A.) now.
@Aunoo: Thanks man!
At one side you re asking apology while on other hand you are attacking on other belif? WOW!
Why such extreme man? Why can’t you bring harmony in the month called MOHARRAM which means a sacred one?
I believe in the Quranic verse mentioned by Imran therefore I would not like to ruin my Akhirat by cursing those who were always blessed by Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) that is Muawayiah and his family members like Abu Sufyan(RA) etc. Quran is above than everything else on earth. What Yazid did he would be taken care by Allah Himself
Since you r a shia therefore its neither new nor surprising to read all such things but I think Sunnis would also visit it who I am sure believe what Prophet said Himself
“Observe silence in respect of my Sahaaba (when they are mentioned with disrespect).’”
and as its said in Surah Kafiroon
“Lakum Denokum waliadin”
@SAWJ
Good post. And i’m happy tht u provided complete references for all the arguments.
@Noman
I dont think citing a funny story can be quoted here as Muharram has started; but, for the sake of argument, I would like to:
There’s a story famous in Sindhi that a Molvi was speaking on the life of Hazrat Yousuf(as) and Bibi Zulaikha. At the end of the whole story a man stood up and asked, ‘Was Zulaikha man or woman?’ (he asked this because he thought the molvi said Zule Khan)
Hope you got the point.
Ya Hussain(as)!
@Aamir: Thanks man.
@Noman: Perhaps you fail to see that all sources are Sunni? I have not attacked anyone’s beliefs, I have just highlighted some necessary points.
Moreover, history is filled with the tales of Bani Umayyah’s (L.A.) enmity towards the Prophet’s (S.A.W.W.) family. Why would the Prophet (S.A.W.W.) seek them as his companions?
@ Imran
You should go back and check into the historical aspect. What you are talking about is the “Bayt-e-Rizwan”…
So let me refute your “RA” claim about Muawiyah.. based on Islamic history recorded by Sunni scholars. The term “RA” applies to all those who were present at the Bayt-e-Ridhwan, when Hazrat Usman had gone into Mecca and it was reported that he has been killed by the Quresh.
Abu Sufyan had NOT accepted Islam by then, hence his son, Muawiyah was ALSO A NON-MUSLIM - and thus NOT present at the Bayt-e-Ridhwan…
This is an old debate that I had won in class with my Islamic Studies teacher way back when i was in my o-levels, so please - lol - dont bring Muawiyah to Bayt-e-Ridhwan… he would probably have been drunk sumwhere when this Bayt took place…
The term “RA” does NOT apply to all companions of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW).
@ Noman
I have just refuted the story mentioned by Imran citing historical sources - so please come forward and make your aakhirat by removing “RA” from Muawiyah’s name…
You guys really need to know why companions are called “RA”
Didn’t Abu Sufyan accept Islam after the conquest of Makkah? That leaves barely two years for him to become a “companion”. 21 years of being a staunch enemy and two years being a devoted companion. Sounds way too absurd!
@ SAWJ
oh well i think we just get used to adding “Amir” to Muawiyah’s name for some reason. per khair, i forgot telling you earlier, great post!
@ Noman
i hope you know that Muawiyah was one of the last people in Mecca to have accepted Islam after Fatah-e-Mecca along with his parents Abu Sufiyan and Hind. He was one of those people who Hazrat Khalid ibn Al-Walid wanted to have killed on enetering Mecca with his four armies but Prophet (SAW) had promised safety to everyone and thus was saved. He broke his promise with Hazrat Ali (RA) and became the Caliph himself, remained unethically on that post for nearly 19 years and also engaged in a civil war! Ended up appointing his son, Yazid, as his successor rather than trying to make up for his earlier mistake.
@Ammar: I believe in what Quran says rather some random guy tell me who is sahaba or who is not.
@Karachiwali All I know what mentioned in Quran. Did you read the verse mentioned above? Was Allah not aware aboutt the incident?
All I know that Muhammad(pbuh) ordered at time of Makkah Conquest that those who resided in house of Sufiyan(RA) or in Kaaba are in peace. Do check the history books specially related to Makkah Conquest. Now you will say that Muhammad(pbuh) made the mistake(godforbid)?
Whether he accepted in last or in first, Muwaiyah(RA) was a companion. Don’t forget Omar and AbuBakr(RA) were non Muslims too. Will you doubt on them as well?
If you are doubting Quranic verse then it’s your choice. You might be smarter than God and His prophet but I am not. Infact we Sunnis don’t consider ourselves smarter than Any sahabas(RA). I am not here to correct you or anyone. I just shared with those who would be reading it.
I am not here to win some contest neither to argue. If we as normal human beings starts criticizing those who were even never criticized by Muhammd(pbuh) then we are surely going to screw ourselves. One can then start accusing that why Muhammad signed Hudeybia Treaty. Arguments are endless.
I will stop commenting further on this topic. I hope you will learn further if you read on this issue and about status of Sahabas(RA) infront of Allah and Muhammad(pbuh). It seems my belief is different than yours.
May Allah guide you ,me and everyone.
I rest my case.
MASHALLAH! your post was so complete with all the refrences GREAT job!
@ Noman
I am a sunni and that too from a strict deobandi family.
As for other companions being non-muslims before they became the sahabas, well everyone was a non-muslim at a certain point in time, why only point Hazrat Omar (RA) and Hazrat Abu Bakar (RA) …wat I am trying to say is that Muawiyah only accepted Islam after getting threats of being killed by various companions (several sources say that Hazrat Khalid Ibn Al-Wali (RA) and Hazrat Omar (RA) threatened him). Now coming to the exact detail, I am sure you have read how difficult it was to make Abu Sufiyan say the second part of the kalma. Im sure you also know what Hind did to Hazrat Hamza (RA), even she bacame a muslim after the conquest of Mecca. It was just the greatness of the Prophet (SAW) that he promised everyone safety to the ones in Abu Sufiyan’s house (Muawiyah was Abu Sufian’s son so obviously was in his house), not that he didnt know the intentions.
why why why can’t we co-exist??? i am unable to comprehend why cant we go to-gather?? these sectarian differences have grown to such a height that they overcome the muslim ‘ummah’ from political perspective; the reason we are unable to make a muslim fedaration till today…we all know the strife between saudi and iran… and so on. This is stupid on our part…how much differences have we seen amongst christians albeit they also have factions within. Don’t we have this ayah to look upon: wa’ tasimo be hablillah e jamee’on wala tafaraqu…Unfortunately the sects started very early and we can not do anything but we surely can use our brains to co-exist…
I believe a post about Muawiyah (L.A.) has become necessary now.
@KW: Thanks!
But it wasn’t Hazrat Ali (A.S.). It was Imam Hasan (A.S.). After Hazrat Ali’s (A.S.) martyrdom in the mosque of Kufah, Imam Hasan (A.S.) became Caliph. But after four months, he made a deal with Muawiyah (L.A.) and transferred the Caliphate to him to save the Muslim empire from civil war. After Muawiyah’s (L.A.) death, the caliphate was to come back to Imam Hasan (A.S.) or Imam Husain (A.S.), whomever was alive then. Imam Hasan (A.S.) was poisoned by Muawiyah in 50 AH at the age of 46 years. Later, when Muawiyah (L.A.) was dying, he appointed Yazeed (L.A.) as Caliph, breaking his deal with Imam Hasan (A.S.). Imam Husain (A.S.), however, did not make any moves for the caliphate, yet Yazeed (L.A.) felt threatened by his popularity and therefore, asked for his allegiance. This led to the event of Karbala.
@Lizzie: Thanks!
“that Hazrat Khalid Ibn Al-Wali (RA) and Hazrat Omar (RA) threatened him”
if you are a sunni then you should know that it came from shia sources. Why do not you read things?
as I said that arguments are endless. now one could argue why Ali was not declared 1st caliph and why Abu bakr became one.
read Quran read other things before discussing things related to religion. I mentioned Makkah Conquest. If you are refuting it then your choice. I already said I would not like to comment on this further.
By the way, whya re you not adding “LA” if you think Muawaiyah(RA) is a culprit?
Karachiwali just answer me. Did mUhamamd made a mistake when he asked others to take shelter at Sufyan(RA)’s house at the time of Makkah Conquest? just answer that.
@Noman: “that Hazrat Khalid Ibn Al-Wali (RA) and Hazrat Omar (RA) threatened him”
if you are a sunni then you should know that it came from shia sources. Why do not you read things?
Which Shia source to be exact? Shias hold Khalid Bin Walid responsible for the martyrdom of the Holy Prophet’s (S.A.W.W.) daughter Bibi Fatimah (S.A.). They will never praise him.
As for asking people to stay at Abu Sufyan’s (L.A.) house, he was the leader of Makkah at that time. This does not indicate that he was a good man. In fact, when he and his wife were brought before the Prophet (S.A.W.W.), he did not forgive them. Rather he told them to never show him their faces again.
And this might come as a shocker, but there were two Abu Sufyan’s at that time. One was Abu Sufyan ibne Harb Ibne Umayya (L.A.) and the other was Abu Sufyan Ibne Hurais Ibne Abdul Muttalib (A.S.), Rasoolullah’s (S.A.W.W.) cousin. The latter has been confused with the former throughout Muslim history.
@SWAJ: I already mentioned that due to difference in sects I know you would not agree there I would not like to argue. Lets agree to disagree. :-). I hope u will respect it.
Infact that reply was to karachiwali. She claims to be a deobandi so I want to know which deoband or sunni source was she referring. I myself is a deobandi therefore would like to cross check it. If she says that Muhammad(pbuh) made a mistake by suggesting meccans to reside at Abu Sufiyan(RA)’s home or if she does not consider Mowayiah and his father a companion(RA) of Mohammad(RA) then i would not prefer to argue with her. All I know that it’s not a deoband belief.
Yazid did wrong and no sunni refutes it but this is not an excuse to cursr companions. thats my stand as a sunni
actually the claim that mowaiah(ra) was threatened by Omar(RA) and Khalid(RA) indicates that Islam was spread by sword? does she say that? Being a Muslim I believe that Muhammad did not train His companions like that which means her source is not authentic at all
Lets see what does she reply
@ Noman
first of all, what i said does not come from shia sources at all. In fact I did not even know that Hazrat Khalid ibn Al-Walid is held responsible by the shias for martyrdom of Hazrat Fatima (RA). i usually dont read books by shia ulema.
secondly, read what i wrote: I am a sunni and from a strict deobandi family. That is, i am not a deobandi myself. It is just a school of thought and I dont have to agree with it just because the majority of people in my family agree with it.
Now, coming to the point that I said that Islam was forced upon poeple. I never claimed that but certain very strict measures had to be taken to show military advantange so that no one would consider them weak anymore (I am sure you know what was done after ghazwa-e-khandaq). Now, for the threats, the threats were not giving by the Prophet (SAW), instead by two very aggressive men: Hazrat Khalid ibn Al-Walid (RA) and Hazrat Omar (RA). In addition to that, they were only threatened and not killed. Obviously, they could not obviously go against the Prophet (SAW). In fact, the Prophet (SAW) did not himself forgive everyone at once but he finally did decide to forgive even his biggest enemies, even those who were not reverting to Islam [Who enters the house of Abu Sufyan will be safe, who lays down arms will be safe, who locks his door will be safe].
Hazrat Omar (RA) was in fact so aggressive that he also suggested that all the prisoners of war of ghazwa-e-badar should be killed. This was not Prophet’s (SAW) decision and thus was rejected.
As for training, you obviously know things started going wrong right after the death of the Prophet (SAW). Can you deny the conflicts? Did the Prophet (SAW) train the companions to have a conflict? A lot was done according to their opinions, influences by others and several other reasons.
Please do not confuse everything that the Companions did with shariah. The Companions did a lot according to their nature (Hazrat Usman’s (RA) caliphate was obviously very different as compared to that of Hazrat Omar’s (RA)) and their perception of Islam. We need to understand that they were after all humans.
And oh, finally the point that why Hazrat Aby Bakar (RA) was chosen to be the Caliph and not Hazrat Ali (RA), please do not start that debate cuz its gonna make me write even longer comments which I am in no mood of doing.
@ SAWJ
can all of you guys please dedicate some pages on your blogs just to me? I dont know why, I tend to attract a lot of ‘unwanted’ attention, u can then just divert all those comments for me to those pages
@Karachiwali: you are getting attention due to your confused and disputed statements only. It is because you are the only one who claims to be a sunni(regardless of any sect) yet you are giving disputed statements. I just requested you to give me source reference. what was wrong in it. I just want to cross check it.
and you did not answer about
1)did the prophet make a mistake regarding Sufyan(RA)?
2) why do not you call LA if you think Mowayia and his family is not respectable?
just refer me ANY sunni source to justify all your statements. Thanks
@ Karachiwali
Islam was spread by threats? are you out of your mind? Islam was spread by good deeds and by proofs of Allah being the only creator. Not by threats. You have just said what hidnu’s say that Islam was merely spread by swords and that anyone who didnt accept islam was killed. Please refrain from making such statement. We all know that Islam is purest religion with hatred for none. We live in peace. Be it Mohammad (SAW), Mohammad Bin Qasim or Sallahudding Ayobi Islam was always preached never imposed. I dont even know how you gathered the courage to even type it. Its because of people like you that Muslims is in a state of confusion today….
With regards to Shia’s well they have made another religion of Islam. Their Kalma is different from Sunni’s and as far as I know Kalma is the first step towards Islam. If the first step is not right than the rest of the steps can go to hell. Shia reject Hazart Abu Bakar (Blessing of Allah), Hazart Umar (Blessing of Allah) and Hazart Uthman (Blessing of Allah) upon them. So by rejection of this they prove to reject the people who were closest to Allah. In my opinion Shia’s were the first one’s to question the authorities and they are people responsible of many betrayals and creating sects in Islam. Shia idealogies are way too different from Sunni’s and they cant be followed or believed in partially.
Moreover, Karachiwali you have tried to imply another vicious point by saying that Prophet Muhammad (SAW) made a mistake regarding Sufiyan (RA)..There cant be anything more wrong said by anyone than what you have tried to imply here. May Allah be with you and put you, your knowledge and your thinking on the right part. Please dont get carried away, read quran it is the only right guidance for us….
Wearing a scarf/hijaab and discussing Islam doesnt make anyone a greater Muslim than anyone else. Please refrain from putting such vicious comments on Islam.
Allah SWT please bless all humanity with your kindness…Ameen
there is no need to fight. Sister Karachi wali you know well that “Sunni” means the one who follow sunnahs of Rasool(saw) and there is a famous sahih hadith in which prophet said.
Jis ney mere sahaba[ra] se Bughs[grudges] rakha usne mujh(saw) se Bughs rakha
Have you read the above hadith? I am surprised you ignored the the verse of Surah AlHujarat which I mentioned above.
There is another verse of Baqrah
And when it is said unto them (disbelievers): Believe as these people [Sahabah (r.a)] believe; they say:
Shall we believe as these foolish believes? Alert! they (disbelievers) are the foolish but they know not. “
Please ponder about verses of Quran I have mentioned above. As far as your sayings about Omar and others. I already quoted that the Prophet clearly said that those who keep grudges against his companions actually keep grudges against the Prophet(saw) himself. Is it not loud and clear? Every sunni knows it. Are we not being asked to show respect for those who were respected by the prophet?
as far as referring Omar, How come aggressive nature of someone makes him misguided or bad? If it was like that (godforbid) then why the Prophet said
If some else Prophet should have been proposed by ALLAH after me, would have been Umar bin Khattab. -Tirimzi”
Do you think that a person like Mohammad(saw) can suggest a prophet who is aggressive and not suitable? Do you believe that sahabas and other humans are same in status? If it was like that then Allah would never had said advised to respect sahabas or Rasool(saw) would not have said hadiths regarding Sahabas. No where Allah nor Mohammad said that certain groups of Sahabas should not be followed. I better quote(49:7) again.
And know that among you(the companions) is the Messenger of Allah. If he were to obey you in much of the matter, you would be in difficulty, but Allah has endeared to you the faith and has made it pleasing in your hearts and has made hateful to you disbelief, defiance and disobedience. Those are the [rightly] guided.
Please sister read these Quranic verses and ponder. These can not be refuted by declaring them weak too.
As far as Muywaiah(RA) is concerned, there is a hadith
Allah! guide Muwaiyah with guidance from yourself, save him from any disgrace and forgive all his past and future sins(Tabrani)
other one is
‘O Allah endow Muáwiya with the special knowledge of the Qurân and save him from punishment(Tabarani)
Both are authentic hadiths and you can refer any sunni ulema. These two hadiths clearly indicates that the Prophet was already informed about fate of his grandson and other conflicts in life that’s why He (saw) was praying for Him(RA).
Please consult the right ulemas of sunni sects. I hope you are not calling Ghamidi or Modudi your scholar?
Even Zakir Naik is not a true scholar and like many others he tries to solve everything with brain and logic which is not according to Islam at all.
We all are not educated enough that we can say anything about those who were already informed about their entrance in Jannah. We ,half baked Muslims can not use our logics to judge who was wrong or who was right. Allah knows everything. I already had quoted Ibn-e-Kasir that what Ali(RA) used to say about Muwaiyah(RA).
And yes please do not write about why Abu Bakr was selected and Omar not. You will say more things which you don’t intend to but they would certainly appear blasphemous.
May Allah guide you and save your Eman. May Allah guide me and save my Eman.May Allah guide everyone becuse It is only Allah who can guide otherwise even a Prophet like Noah(AS)
could not save His wife and kids from wrath of Allah. Forgive me if you feel that I offended you. You are my sister in Islam so I thought to clarify few things. Rest,Allah knows the best.
Asalamo Alaikum
wow…its all against me now! Its alright, i am not offended but I think I need to clarify my stance.
now lemme clarify again, i did not say that Islam was spread by threats. You people just jump to conclusions without reading the whole thing. This is a long comment and I know a lot of you will only skim it, make assumptions and start giving comments against me.
I just said that Hazrat Omar (RA) and Hazrat Khalid Ibn Al-Walid (RA) were aggressive men. I think you people need to look back at history books and read more about how aggressive they often got especially wen it came to people who said/did anything against the Prophet (SAW). Thats how they were in nature, do not connect their nature with Islam. They wanted the family of Abu Sufian to be killed and I think with the type of enmity they had shown against Islam, it seems quite the right thing. You guys surely need to go back and study the conquest of Mecca and read how difficult it was for Abu Sufian to say the second part of the kalma! He even said to Prophet (SAW) that he had doubts in his mind but with no option left although of course the Prophet (SAW) had forgiven him and had made sure that no one would do anything against them.
Secondly, lets just face it…we had our very first fitnah just a few hours after the death of Prophet (SAW). I will not tolerate if anything is said against Hazrat Abu Bakar (RA) or Hazrat Omar (RA). They made a decision which was best according to their knowledge, but why do we forget that all of them were humans!!
We also must admit that Muslims come to a land to be its rulers…just like Mohammad Bin Qasim did (sindh was important for a better trade route). Raja Dahar (regardless of whether he was a tyrant king or not) did not attack the Muslim army, remember? But, wasnt that important? We needed to conquer different regions of the world to become the superpower.
I did not want to talk about this but now as everyone is targeting me, can anyone tell me why only the Meccan Muhajirins got to the highest ranks while not a single person from Medina could dare get a position higher up in the ranks? Do you know why Ansars from Medina supported Hazrat Ali (RA) so much?
Thirdly, please read what happened right after ghazwa-e-khandaq. The punishment that was given was harsh, real harsh but again that was important to show the world that ‘we are a power and here to stay!’
Please also read about War of Siffin fought between Hazrat Ali (RA) and Muawiyah. Where was Muawiyah when Hazrat Usman (RA) was being murdered? It wa Hazrat Ali (RA) trying to save Hazrat Usman (RA) and not Muawiyah. For me, he was just a very ambitious ruler, not a religious man. If he was all that pious why did he break his contract in the first place? Why did he nominate his son as his successor when he knew that it was something promised to Hazrat Imam Hasan (RA)? Do you know why Marwan Ibn al-Hakam was appointed?
Coming to Yazid, we all know that after Hazrat Imam Hussain’s (RA) martyrdom, there was a backlash in medina and he actually had the guts to attack medina, conquer it and chase Hazrat Ib Zubair all the way to Mecca ending up damaging the Ka’abah itself.
Why, in the first place, do we want to compare Hazrat Ali (RA), Prophet’s (SAW) cousin, son-in-law, the first male muslim and a Righteous Caliph with Muawiyah?
Finally, I dont need to justify to anyone whether I am a sunni or not. In fact, I dont think it is right to categorize ourselves as shias or sunnis in the first place anyway. I dont have to be a shia to say that Muawiyah was a man who could not keep a promise that he made publicaly or someone who paved the way to martyrdom of both the grandsons of Prophet (SAW)…and to be called a sunni by you people, I will not say that Muawiyah was simply the best man this world has ever seen.
And oh, a saying that I must quote here, the following two:
“The Messenger of Allah said: Whoever hurts Ali, has hurt me” - Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal
“Ali (RA) said: By him who split up the seed and created something living, the Apostle (may peace and blessing be upon him) gave me a promise that no one but a believer would love me, and none but a hypocrite would nurse grudge against me.”
- Sahih Muslim
@ SAWJ
write a post on Muawiyah, dude!
I think I forgot one thing, I just do not think that it was a mistake by the Prophet (SAW) to forgive Abu Sufian and his family. He was a generous and true man. He did what a great man like him should have done!
omg, it was such a long comment…and i just noticed a few typo errors too, i hope which wouldnt be held against me
I have tears of joy in my eyes that all is not lost. We have people who truly believe in Muslim unity and who actually respect Hazrat Ali and understand the injustices meted out to him.
I support your ideology to a very large extent, Karachiwali.
Well I never wanted to take part in the lost debate. This debate was already lost a very long time ago. Right now people are bashing the Sahaba of Rasool Allah(S.A.W) well Sunni people bashing Hazrat Ali(RA) and Shia are bashing Hazrat Abu Sufyan(RA) and Hazrat Muawia ( RA).
SAWJ, i like your blog, you have your belief and I have a my own belief. You are doing a great job, Keep it up the good work. It seems that your blog has been hijacked by Karachiwali (who some how questioning the Emaan of Abu Sufyan (RA) and Muawia (RA)) .
Those people who are participating in the arguement/debate. Will you please don’t bash or say any thing bad to the sahaba of Rasool Allah (SAW).
baqi sab ko Allah ke aagay to munh dikhana hi hai.
Karachiwali you skipped the verses and hadtihs I quoted. May i asked why? You can not answer them or is there something else?
You also skipped which sunni scholars were you referring here? I read all your comments and what I found that
1)you have issues regarding Abu Bakr as 1st Calip and issue with Othman(RA) as 3rd Caliph and then with Othman(RA). Do not you know Both AbuBakr and Othman belong to Ashra Mubashira.
2)you doubted on the belief of Sufyan(RA) because he accepted islam very late. It means that godforbid I should start cursing Abi Talib, the father of Ali(RA) who died as a non-Muslim?
Does that mean Sufyan was not a Muslim or Mohammad(saw) (godforbid) not capable enough to figure out what was in heart of Sufyan and His son while I even quoted sahih hadiths and even Quranic verses to you.
3)You have issues with Mowayah due to Hasan(RA)
I am sorry to say but these all come from shiite sources rather sunni. This is why there is much resemblance in thoughts between you and the author of this post. None of sunni sects believe in that. No matter how much do you try to label them as sunni sources. If it was then you would have given source references by now but so far no sources has been provided. I visited your site where you have given links of Yusuf estes, Tariq Jamil,Farhat Hashmi etc. I have listened them and I personally did not find them preaching things which you are sharing here. Who are those scholars who are feeding you these things?
I personally don’t need some scholar to tell me whether the Prophet and Allah were right or wrong when verses are clear.
And please do not assume that only you have read about Islamic history. Like you others also have read books. what I said above that we as an ordinary Human beings have no right to criticize on those who were respected by Allah and His messenger and I referred verses and hadiths while you provided no reference at all instead of you are sharing what is in your mind. If quranic verses and hadiths are not being considered important than nothing remains to discuss further. This does not declare you authentic at all sister.
Who are we to judge them? I am sure you would not be pleased if someone judge you without knowing anything about you.
I feel sorry sister. May Allah show you the right path. I rest my case.
Assalam Walikum
“Whoever hurts Ali, has hurt me”
True but in which context has you taken it? does it give you and me freedom to criticize Sahabas(RA)? Let me refer one thing more.
Do not curse my Companions! Do not curse my Companions! I swear by Him in Whose hand my life is that, even if one among you had as much gold as Mount Uhud and spent it in the way of God, this would not be equal in reward to a few handfuls of them or even to half of that.(Bukhari, “Fada’il al-Ashab,” 5; Muslim, “Fada’il al-Sahaba,” 221)
All I am saying to show respect for those who were respected by the Prophet(saw) Himself. What the Prophet(saw) said about Ali, he said something similar for other companions too. If you actually read the chapter Fazail-e-Ashab in Bukhari then you would witness yourself. The Prophet(saw) was not biased towards someone just because He or She was the relative.
Picking few things from here and there and concluding the whole thing about a religion is really not wise at all. Why do not you consult your scholars or other sunni friends. I am not saying you believe in my words. Just ask others because it’s matter of your Imaan. Do not take it lightly. You do not know what are you doing. Allah bless you.
@Karachiwali regarding the hadith ‘whoever hurts ali’ , I just checked the collection of hadith and I found something following while referring Hanbal
Oh God, Oh God! Refrain from using bad language about my Companions! Oh God, Oh God! Refrain from using bad language about my Companions! Do not make them the target of your attacks after me! Whoever loves them, loves them on account of his love of me; whoever hates them, hates them on account of his hatred of me. He who hurts them, has hurt me, and he who hurts me, has hurt God, he who hurts God, God will punish him.( Hanbal, 5.57) and( Tirmizi)
While I searched your referred hadith, all of the links came up were from Shiite sources. Every site referred Ali and Hssain as (AS) which is not a sunni way. Why is like that?
Sis you really need to make a complete study before you get mislead due to confusion.
I have only one thing to say to all those trying to defend Muawiyah. The following is a hadith narrated by Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, “The signs of a hypocrite are three: Whenever he speaks he tells a lie; whenever he is entrusted he proves dishonest; whenever he promises he breaks his promise.”
@Karachiwali, I am defending Islam rather Muwaiyah(RA) or any individual celebrity. I have no grudges against the companions because this is not I was taught by Muhammad(saw) and His God.
The hadith was definitely not said about Muwaiyah(RA) and again you are speaking the language of shia belief who always had issues with Muawiyah. I know it because this hadith is referred a lot by shiites to prove Muwaiyah(RA) a liar. Let me put this hadith other way.
1)you referred shitte sources as a sunni sources that is you attacked on sunni belief without any realization which is an example of dishonesty..
2) You referred a hadith from a shitte sources which was actually something else.I gave the source. This is an example of a lie.
3) On your own site you admitted that we all so called educated Muslims and here you are being expert of Islam by reading few online links(that too from Shiite sources) and claimed that you have read a lot which is sign of breaking a promise and double standards.
Now tell me who is a hypocrite here? One should look himself before pointing out fingers at others. You kept saying you are neutral while you sound biased towards what Shiites preach. Anyone who would read your comments will not disagree with me.You ignored Quranic verses and hadiths I mentioned which is surprising as a sunni follower.
I would not like to argue with you further and i am sure no other sunni like to argue with you because
1) you kept repeating same things without providing any sources because you have none. All of your arguments were based on few Internet links
2)you try to solve religious issues and matters by using Wisdom of your own and by degrading wisdom of the Holy men including the Prophet Himself. You decided Muwaiyah(RA) and few other were criminals and then made the whole discussion around it. This is not Islam anyway and You can ask any Sunni Scholar(if you believe in them) about it.
3)You just consider every thing related to religion as authentic without knowing whether its genuine or false attributed by one or more communities. All of your comments reflected the thought opposite to sunni belief; be it by Deobandi,Barelvi or any other sect.
Stop for a moment and think what are you talking about and say Astaghfar before it gets late and you lose everything. The day you will realize the worth of Companions and hadiths you will feel sorry for yourself. Do not go far away that you can’t return. Rest is in Allah’s hands. I can only pray for you.
Lets agree to disagree
Salam Walikum
I never intended to be in this lost debate/arguement, as this arguement/debate was long lost centuries ago.
I just wanted to say I really enjoy reading your posts. Keep the good work comming. You have your belief and I have my own belief. I never read Zakir Naik’s work, so I can’t say any thing.
It seems people here are more interested to bash the sahabas of Rasool Allah (SAW).
It seems that your blog has been hijacked by Karachiwali, who is more willing to question of the Emaan of Abu Sufyan (RA) and Muawia (RA). There is always be a freedom of writing/talking but I just want to plead the readers and commentators will just don’t bash the companions of Prophet (SAW) baqi aagay ALLAH ko sab ne hi munh dikhana hai.
@Imran, Noman: You guys seem too interested in sources< ./i>, which must be Sunni. I’ll provide them for you, in a later post, as soon as I’m done with Zakir Naik.
@Imran: You provide translations from the Quran. May I ask who translated them for you? How do you know that the translation is correct? You are hell bent on proving that “Muawiyah was a good man” is a common Sunni belief. What if I provide you with Sunni sources that he wasn’t?
Both Sunnis and Shias have deep respect for the Sahaba. The difference arises on “who actually were the Sahaba”?
Moreover, Hazrat Abu Talib (A.S.) passed away a Muslim. And even if he didn’t, Islam was spread under his supervision and protection of the Prophet (S.A.W.W.) and history is full of incidents where he protected the Prophet (S.A.W.W.) at all costs. The episode of Shaib-e-Abi-Talib (A.S.) is proof of this where he used to guard the Prophet (S.A.W.W.) day in and day out, and used to switch his sons with the Prophet (S.A.W.W.) when they were sleeping, to confuse all those who came to kill him. All Muslims owe their faith to him just for this act and should be grateful. The name of Allah survived due to this act of his, don’t you think Allah would reward him for saving the Prophet (S.A.W.W.) by putting all four of his sons at risk including Hazrat Ali (A.S.)? The Abyssinian king Najjashi helped Muslims on their first migration under Hazrat Jaffar-e-Tayyar (A.S.) He died a Christian, yet Rasoolullah (S.A.W.W.) offered a Ghaibana Namaz-e-Janaza for him!
Muwaiyah (L.A.) is responsible not only for the deaths of Hazrat Ali (A.S.), Imam Hasan (A.S.) but also Hazrat Ayesha and Hazrat Muhammad Ibne Abi Bakar (A.S.)
All following comments must be related to the topic of this post. Save your Muawiyah (L.A.) comments for the related post that’ll come soon.
In other words, back off of Karachiwali. She is a Sunni and none of your comments or mindsets can change that. Wait for my related post and you can all empty your tummies there.
Sidestepping the original discourse, I want to ask where did you learn all this history from? I mean, did you pick up Tabqaat, Tabari, Tirmizi, Ibn Hanbal, Ibn Abi Shaibah etc yourself and selected after careful and thorough reading what it all boils down to? Or it is that you have one or a few books on the history of that period which carry all these quotes for you? In case it is the latter, can you share the names of those books? I, for one at leasst, would regard these books as your actual source and reference rather than what you have quoted everywhere in your post.
And in case you have indeed been through all those historical texts you quote, could you please try to give complete references? Just saying it is Tirmizi, Hanbal etc doesn’t consist mentioning full references. You would know very well that you are talking about volumes and not mere leaflets that just mentioning the title would suffice. You should be able to pin down to the actual chapter or Baab which you are quoting from.
And please take note that I am not trying to prove anything one way or the other or being sarcastic in any sense by asking these questions. To tell you frankly, I am not here to learn history so the conclusions reached to don’t bother me at all. All I am interested in for now is to see how people base their opinions and what method they use to justify them. The reason why the questions are meant for you is because you are the author of this blog and it is easier to keep a note of your opinions than others.
Thanks.
Your post is an elightening one.
I’m Sunni but have many Shiite friends at University.I attend their lectures and events but do not necessarily agree on their beliefs.
I think you’ve highlighted things which I would hesitate to ask and would not know where to look for such information.
Jazakallah for sharing this.
I appreciate your clarity and authentic hadith as evidence.
May Allah keep us all guided.
Ameen,
Ohh damn-plz email me your reply.I forgot to click the box below.
If it’s not too much trouble.
@lKarachiwali. LOL! you are such a joke! you kept trolling rather than providing sources for a mature discussion. Bah! It would not be surprising that some day you will be cursing Ayesha(RA) too because shias had issues with her as well
@SAWJ: Translation? I know what are you trying to say. You will now blame Usman(RA) just like Karachi wali. Man this thing is not new for me.
Sunnis do not copy/paste stuff from shia source.
whatever karachiwali wrote here is not mentioned in sunni sources.
and I already said that I am not even least bothered about your sources. Its quite obvious you would be speaking like a shiite.
Why are you defending Karachiwali? the post seems more was her attempts to defend you rather than her own imaan.
have fun!
@Brickwall: I wrote these posts four months ago (see “Repost”). Now you want me to go back and do the whole research again? Sorry, got more posts to write bro, but I’ll keep your points in mind while writing them. And you can read all the sources, it won’t harm you, in fact it will be beneficial.
@hfm: Thanks a lot for those encouraging words.
@noman: Shias have issues with a lot of people that Karachiwali will respect. And so will you, but that will not be discussed here.
And my sources are your sources. See the post above, do you find any Shia sources? Same will be for the Muawiyah (L.A.) post. If you don’t want to believe in your own books, what can I do?
And Karachiwali has a right to her opinions, it was not an attempt to defend me. I wrote a post about Imam Husain (A.S.), not Muawiyah (L.A.) and you have taken it in a new direction with your comments.
Tell me one thing: If I had written a post cursing (nauzobillah) Imam Husain (A.S.), would you have been this zealous in defending him? Or is it just the Bani Umayyah (L.A.)?
We are not biased towards certain people. We dont declare Ali or others as Prophets hence we don’t use (AS) with their names. They are not Imams are all thats why they are written as (RA)
“a post cursing (nauzobillah) Imam Husain (A.S.”
You question reminds me a christian who asked me whether I would be as touchy as I am for Mohammad (saw) if Jesus(AS) is offended. He asked this because He believes that Muslims don’t respect Jesus(AS). I hope you got the point.
If you are not defending her then why are you posting on her behalf? and who was actually replying you? I know you are a Shia and I already said I am not willing to argue with you. Karachiwali claimed to be a sunni but all her stuff is from non sunni sources . She had nothing to justify her shallow claims. Thus Allah exposed her lie. She did not provide any source which proved her dishonest and liar.
Dont let me to repeat same thing again and again. if she cant answer then you should not respond me on her behalf.
have fun
We are not biased towards certain people. We dont declare Ali or others as Prophets hence we don’t use (AS) with their names. They are not Imams are all thats why they are written as (RA)
Neither do we declare them as prophets. They are our Imams. Something which you failed to catch at the event of Ghadeer. And as even the mainstream Muslims believe that they were the most pious and noble of people as depicted by a lot of Ahadees, adding Razi Allah Ta’ala Anha to their names becomes redundant as Allah is already Raazi with them.
As for your statement that (A.S.) is only added to the name of prophets, please do some research on this. Alaihis Salam can be added to anyone’s name and it means “Salam ho aap per”. There is no rule or law stating that it is a necessary part of any prophet’s name.
You want stuff from Sunni sources? I’ll give you that, I told you already. And you can’t stop me from responding on her behalf. You are repeating the same thing again and again because you fail to understand what I’m saying, thus making me repeat it again and again too.
She did not make “shallow” claims, neither is she “dishonest” or a “liar”. Wait for my “Muawiyah (L.A.)” post and we’ll see who Allah helps expose as the liar.
more you defend her, more it gives impression that you and she are in sync in religious thoughts.
“Allah helps expose as the liar”
“your buddy” failed to give source thats why she is a liar. If she had not claimed to be a sunni then i was not going to reply her either. I dont want she accuse sunni sect by making lame claims. That’s it!
Me and her are in sync over the topic of Muawiyah (L.A.) because we realize and understand what a corrupt man he was. And I’ll provide the sources on her behalf, don’t worry about that. She’s not accusing the Sunni sect by making lame claims, you are the one who is making the lame claim of representing the Sunni sects views on Muiawiyah (L.A.) when the majority of Sunnis don’t agree with your views. How many people will you campaign against?
No I don’t necessarily want you to redo anything. As I said, I am not here to learn anything about history itself; it is the method by which people argue for and against issues that interests me for now. If that’s how you did it originally then there was a glitch in the way you quote your sources. And I think you realize it too when you say that you would keep it in mind for future.
Coming to your suggestion that I should go and read these sources. Though I do appreciate it for a fact but tell me how can I practically do it? Just to verify one reference of say a hadeeth, do you want me to go through all the volumes of Tirmizi searching? If so, I would say it without hesitation that “Main farigh hun, lekin itna nahin!” : )
And I am still awaiting what you have to say to my question whether you have read all these sources (repeat: Tirmizi, Tabari, Ibn Saad etc) yourself or you are just using some other books which have all these quotes compiled for you?
Thanks for the polite response by the way.
u r funny sawj and dont pay attention.
bhai she made comments so I would ask her only. am i right?
the way you keep saying you would give response on her behalf proves you are the one who is feeding her about her “so called shia claims”
Thanks
@Brickwall: You can easily go through the volumes of those books as most are well organized into sections. Now a hadees on the virtues of Imam Husain (A.S.) won’t be found in the Zakaat or Hajj sections would it?
And I don’t recognize it as a glitch bhai, I will do it for the convenience of the readers. And yes I’ve skimmed through the desired sections of these books.
@Noman: She made comments, she replied and you keep beating the stick on the wall like a madman.
And when I say that I’ll post a response on her behalf is because I want to “feed you some reality from your own books”, dude!
No, you haven’t had a thorough experience of reading these books of hadeeth otherwise you wouldn’t think it to be that simple. The virtue of Hussain, Abu bakar or anyone could pop up in the sidelines of any hadeeth placed anywhere in the book. The same goes for all other issues by the way. The reason is simple. Ahadeeth are not transcripts of some organized lecture series; most of them are the recollections of prophets (SAW) statements made on the go in a very natural setting. Hence it was not possible for Muhaddith to always be able to pinpoint ahadeeth with a single subject heading. Just like Surah Nisa doesn’t mean that it only talks about women, similarly a hadeeth particularly placed in a Baab doesn’t necessarily have to be confined with regards to its discussion to the title of the Baab.
And your saying that your solid stance is a result of skimming through these books is a beneficial knowledge for me. Thanks for taking out time and answering me this far.
I am actually out of my home in the middle of nowhere and don’t have the luxury of accessing my bookshelf but still I will give one example to support my point of the presence of more than one subject in a hadeeth which could be totally different from the title of the Baab it is placed in
Volumn 009, Book 088 “Afflictions and End of the World”, Hadith Number 225.
—————————————–
Narated By Al-Hasan Al-Basri : When Al-Hasan bin ‘Ali moved with army units against Muawiya, ‘Amr bin AL-As said to Muawiya, “I see an army that will not retreat unless and until the opposing army retreats.” Muawiya said, “(If the Muslims are killed) who will look after their children?” ‘Amr bin Al-As said: I (will look after them). On that, ‘Abdullah bin ‘Amir and ‘Abdur-Rahman bin Samura said, “Let us meet Muawaiya and suggest peace.” Al-Hasan Al-Basri added: No doubt, I heard that Abu Bakra said, “Once while the Prophet was addressing (the people), Al-Hasan (bin ‘Ali) came and the Prophet said, ‘This son of mine is a chief, and Allah may make peace between two groups of Muslims through him.”
You see, the last part of hadeeth contains something about virtue of Hasan r.a. even though the hadeeth is placed in the book of Afflictions…
What I replied was in context to my post. I did not need to go through the whole books to find what I was looking for. Only the Baab’s about the virtues of the grandsons (A.S.).
Khair, the hadees you have provided is indeed a virtue of the elder grandson (A.S.) of the Prophet (S.A.W.W.) and I’m happy that you’ve shared it.
Here is something from the Quran before I say what I want to,
——————————
Surah Al-Munafiqoon:
[Munafiqoon 63:1] When the hypocrites come in your presence (O dear Prophet Mohammed - peace and blessings be upon him) they say, “We testify that you surely are Allah’s Noble Messenger”; and Allah knows that you indeed are His Noble Messenger, and Allah testifies that the hypocrites are indeed liars.
[Munafiqoon 63:2] They have taken their oaths as a shield, thereby prevented others from Allah’s way; indeed they commit extremely evil deeds.
[Munafiqoon 63:3] That is because they accepted faith with their tongues then disbelieved with their hearts, therefore their hearts were sealed - so now they do not understand anything.
[Munafiqoon 63:4] And when you see them, their appearance would please you; and when they speak, you would listen carefully to their speech; like wooden blocks propped against the wall; they assume every cry to be against them; they are the enemy, so beware of them; may Allah slay them! Where are they reverting!
[Munafiqoon 63:5] And when it is said to them, “Come! Allah’s Noble Messenger may seek forgiveness for you” - they turn their heads away, and you will see them turning away in pride.
[Munafiqoon 63:6] It is the same for them, whether you seek forgiveness for them or do not seek forgiveness for them; Allah will never forgive them; indeed Allah does not guide the sinning people.
[Munafiqoon 63:7] It is they who say, “Do not spend upon those who are with Allah’s Noble Messenger until they get distraught”; whereas to Allah only belong the treasures of the heavens and the earth, but the hypocrites do not have sense.
[Munafiqoon 63:8] They say, “If we return to Medinah, then indeed the honourable group will soon expel the lowly one”; whereas all honour belongs to Allah and to His Noble Messenger and to the Muslims, but the hypocrites do not know.
[Munafiqoon 63:9] O People who Believe! May not your wealth or your children cause you to neglect the remembrance of Allah; and whoever does this – so it is they who are in a loss.
[Munafiqoon 63:10] And spend from what We have provided you before death approaches any one of you and he then says, “My Lord! Why did you not give me respite for a little while, so I would have given charity and become of the virtuous?”
[Munafiqoon 63:11] And Allah will never give respite to any soul when its promise arrives; and Allah is Aware of your deeds.
——————————
This Surah proves that ALL COMPANIONS WERE NOT PIOUS and Allah (SWT) has condemned them himself. Why are you people hell bent upon respecting them in total defiance of Allah (SWT)? That is because you followed the so-called Sahaba and NOT Allah and his messenger (SAW).
Ayat 2 of the mentioned Surah - does it not refer to the likes of Abu Sufyan?
Time to open your eyes and check your alignment. Islam got split into one created by these Sahaba and the one Muhammad (SAW) had left. Check what you are following.
And I must mention here that before migration, verses from Allah used to address kuffar but after migration verses about munafiqeen were revealed.
Thanks for the clarification SAWJ. You actually sounded very absolute when you said about the ease with which your references can be established. To quote you, “Now a hadees on the virtues of Imam Husain (A.S.) won’t be found in the Zakaat or Hajj sections would it?”
But the fact is, which you probably seem to agree to now, that a hadeeth on the virtue of Abu Bakar or Husain CAN be found in the Baab of Zakat, Hajj or even Dress. One can never be sure until he has waded through all of it. That is why I think that your research, however valuable it may be, can not be said to be thorough because the historical data in these books is not limited within the relevant chapters you looked or rather skimmed into.
And since I like to make people happy, I will share with you another hadeeth on the virtue of prophet’s grandson:
Volumn 007, Book 072 “Dress”, Hadith Number 772.
—————————————–
Narated By Abu Huraira : I was with Allah’s Apostle in one of the Markets of Medina. He left (the market) and so did I. Then he asked thrice, “Where is the small (child)?” Then he said, “Call Al-Hasan bin ‘Ali.” So Al-Hasan bin ‘Ali got up and started walking with a necklace (of beads) around his neck. The Prophet stretched his hand out like this, and Al-Hasan did the same. The Prophet embraced him and said, “0 Allah! l love him, so please love him and love those who love him.” Since Allah’s Apostle said that. nothing has been dearer to me than Al-Hasan.
Now lets leave aside the issue of the organization of books of hadeeth. You have quoted the following sources in this article:
1) Ansab al-Ashraf by Ahmad ibne Jabir ibne Al-Bladhori
Saheeh Al-Tirmizi
2) Tarikh Al-Tabari
3) Tabaqat ibne Sa’ad
4) Musnad Ahmad Ibne Hanbal, Imam Ahmad ibne Hanbal
5) Musnad Abu-Ya’la, Abu-Ya’la Al-Mousulli
6) Musannaf Ibn Abi Sheiba
7) Al-Khasaes, al-Nisaai
9) Mushkil Al-Athar, Al-Tahawi
10) Al-’Ilal, Al-Darqutni
11) Huliat Al-Abrar, Abu-Naeem
12) Al-Dalael, Al-Bayhaqi
13) Many ahadeeth by Aisha
First of all, I must appreciate you on taking pains to do all this research. The very fact that you knew the names of these books is pleasantly surprising to me because I can imagine the difficulty you would have to go through first in finding these books and then getting at least some of them translated in Urdu or English for you. For eg., what is this Saheeh Tirmizi that you have got up there? And also if you only skimmed, how did you find out those ahadeeeth from Ibne Hanbal? Though I would love to talk about loads of things with you about these books but I guess you are a bit busy already writing other posts and I should also content myself with things that could be of interest to your visitors too as having been encouraged by you some of them might actually want to take a look back at these sources.
Salam. With due respect to your belief and the beliefs of the ones that are commenting here.
Read your section ‘Prophets reaction to news of Karbala” wherein he is supposedly angry and sad that somewhere ahead in future his grandson would be killed and by a person in muslim ummah.
I am a reader of Quran so I get to see a lot stuff that relates perhaps to ‘mythology’ of Prophet Muhammad held by shias and sunnis alike.
Quran states that Prophet Muhammad was not a foreseer nor had knowledge of unseen (ilm e ghaib)
2:188 - Say: I do not control any benefit or harm for my own soul except as Allah please; and had I known the unseen I would have had much of good and no evil would have touched me; I am nothing but a warner and the giver of good news to a people who believe.
6:50 - Say: I do not say to you, I have with me the treasures of Allah, nor do I know the unseen, nor do I say to you that I am an angel; I do not follow aught save that which is revealed to me…
A prophet who can not predict the future does not lower his status - rather portrays him more in human terms.
Peace.
I have been reading all the comments; would luv to participate as has been doing time and again in orkut groups… thz days, i truly dont have time… m not jumping in also coz brother SAWJ is doing a good job all by himself (i’m here!)
BUT JUST A QUICK NOTE:
@Ash: “Be it Mohammad (SAW), Mohammad Bin Qasim or Sallahudding Ayobi Islam was always preached never imposed.”
Bibi jee, I dont have much to say baout Ayobi saheb, but, I’m damn sure that you’re NIL in history as far as Bin Qasim is concerned! He was one of the best of plunderes of the earlier times… Check out the chapters of history regarding his ‘conquest’ of Sindh, or India, as u might call it. What did he do? What did Raja Daher, the then-rular of Sindh, do to save its people? And, yes, I know that he was Hindu; but, he was sincere with his land and people… Bin Qasim was definitely an outsiders who ‘invaded’ Sindh… Don’t just curse the first coz he was Hindu, and dont simply praise the latter coz he was a muslim..
They say, actions speak louder than words!
Moreover, do check why - at all - did he come to Sindh(India)? *important*
@others
Please dont respond to ths comment as the discussion will get distracted…
I prefer to watch this discussion from the sidelines!
Stuff - yes, stuff!! - I found here:
Ash
In my opinion Shia’s were the first one’s to question the authorities and they are people responsible of many betrayals and creating sects in Islam. Shia idealogies are way too different from Sunni’s and they cant be followed or believed in partially.
Imran
If some else Prophet should have been proposed by ALLAH after me, would have been Umar bin Khattab. -Tirimzi”
Allah! guide Muwaiyah with guidance from yourself, save him from any disgrace and forgive all his past and future sins(Tabrani)
Please consult the right ulemas of sunni sects. I hope you are not calling Ghamidi or Modudi your scholar?
Even Zakir Naik is not a true scholar and like many others he tries to solve everything with brain and logic which is not according to Islam at all.
And yes please do not write about why Abu Bakr was selected and Omar not.
Prophet like Noah(AS)
could not save His wife and kids from wrath of Allah.
Abi Talib, the father of Ali(RA) who died as a non-Muslim?
—————————-
@SAWJ
If this is not your first encounter, which, i hope, is not, you must have noticed that my Sunni brothers are all like this.. they won’t look for what is said as a counter-argument to them..
The very first thing they learn is that Shias are kaafir…
Their way of speaking (writing?) depicts them as being quite ‘deep’ in thgouhts and what they say is quite shallow and rubbish. See what Imran said, “Abi Talib, the father of Ali(RA) who died as a non-Muslim?”… See what Ash said, “With regards to Shia’s well they have made another religion of Islam. Their Kalma is different from Sunni’s and as far as I know Kalma is the first step towards Islam.” and “Shia reject Hazart Abu Bakar (Blessing of Allah), Hazart Umar (Blessing of Allah) and Hazart Uthman (Blessing of Allah) upon them. So by rejection of this they prove to reject the people who were closest to Allah”
and all!!
What I would do is to make a humble request to everyone - including Shias - to please READ and try to understand what is being said to you! Don’t just assume that as the reply is coming from the opponent, so it must be countered by finding the weak spots in their conversation…
C’mon!!
And I wonder looking at my friends’ fumbles in immaturity while responding!
And, yes, please wait for Muawiyah(LA) post… we’ll have the great debate there.. ok?
And the kiddie who complies will get candies!! Yooo!!!
@SAWJ
I guess a post about the Saha-Satta (the six books of Ahadith which Sunni muslims believe to be ‘the most authentic after Holy Qur’an’) is also indispensable here.
Say? Big deal, is it?
@ Brickwall
By questioning SAWJ about his references in the above manner, it appears you are trying to say that although he has given all these ahadith, they may not necessarily be THERE as he appears not to have read the books HIMSELF. This, to me, implies either
a) that you do not believe these ahadith and events are true/actually happened.
or b) that you BELIEVE in them but you just want to shake the confidence with which SAWJ has quoted the references.
Point b seems to make no sense to me so I’ll assume that your reason for questioning SAWJ about these books is your doubt about whether these events took place in history or not.
I personally have not touched majority of these books and not even read ALL of those that I have….but based on logic, I tend to believe the claim of these references stands true for the following reasons:
1) The ahadith and events are in accord with the referenced ahadith you have yourself quoted regarding the Prophet (SAWW)’s love for his Grandsons. There is no contradiction.
2) They do not contradict with the Holy Quran nor with any other hadith.
3) I have heard these ahadith quoted NUMEROUS times on Television by Sunni as well as Shia Ulema alike, WITH similar references. There is no dispute. Every sect agrees that Hasan and Hussain were treated by the Prophet as his own sons and he loved them dearly.
In fact, I’m surprised that SAWJ even had to quote references or share all these ahadith as I thought there was no dispute/disagreement between the different sects about the Prophet (SAWW)’s grandsons.
4) The parts that i HAVE read in Sahi Bukhari, Sahih Muslim etc. (and I admit, it is not much) contained similar sayings of the Holy Prophet (SAWW) for Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Hussain, one of the most common being “Hussain is from me and I am from Hussain”….
Therefore, after reading this post, I saw no reason to question SAWJ, as all the Ahadith quoted are not new, turn on the TV anytime these days and you’ll hear them being quoted by Scholars of all sects.
I dont want to enter into this looooong debate
was just confused about what Brickwall was trying to get at, thats why I wrote this post. No criticism either dude, just genuine confusion! Peace.
AamirRaz, I will come back to your comments in a few hours. Just to let you know that thinking that someone doesnt have knowledge about history etc might put you at ease but what it really shows of your weakness of accepting opinions of others.
Thanks
@AamerRaz
Mohammad Bin Qasim was send to fight a war with Raja Dahir after Dahir’s forces intercepted and captured 7 vessels upon their entrance into Persian gulf, they were going to Kerbala to perform religious duties. Some of the captives escaped and went to Hajjaj and complained about action of Dahir’s forces. Upon hearing this Hajjaj wrote a letter to Dahir asking him for the release of female captives and also strongly condemning actions of his forces. Raja Dahir didn’t agree to it and said in strong words that he would not release any of the captives. This is when Hajjaj asked Bin Qasim to arrange his forces and launch offensive for two reason.
1. Freedom of captives
2. Take Islam forward.
Raja Dahir was a cruel king and it was his over confidence which costed him Sindh and it was because of Mohammad Bin Qasim that Sindh was conquered in full.
Sallahuddin on the other hand was a great warrior who conquered Jerusalem and got high praise because he provided everyone a safe passage including the out going queen of Jerusalem.
@AamerRaz
Mohammad Bin Qasim was send to fight a war with Raja Dahir after Dahir’s forces intercepted and captured 7 vessels upon their entrance into Persian gulf, they were going to Kerbala to perform religious duties. Some of the captives escaped and went to Hajjaj and complained about action of Dahir’s forces. Upon hearing this Hajjaj wrote a letter to Dahir asking him for the release of female captives and also strongly condemning actions of his forces. Raja Dahir didn’t agree to it and said in strong words that he would not release any of the captives. This is when Hajjaj asked Bin Qasim to arrange his forces and launch offensive for two reason.
1. Freedom of captives
2. Take Islam forward.
Raja Dahir was a cruel king and it was his over confidence which costed him Sindh and it was because of Mohammad Bin Qasim that Sindh was conquered in full.
Sallahuddin on the other hand was a great warrior who conquered Jerusalem and got high praise because he provided everyone a safe passage including the out going queen of Jerusalem.
@AamerRaz
Mohammad Bin Qasim was send to fight a war with Raja Dahir after Dahir’s forces intercepted and captured 7 vessels upon their entrance into Persian gulf, they were going to Kerbala to perform religious duties. Some of the captives escaped and went to Hajjaj and complained about action of Dahir’s forces. Upon hearing this Hajjaj wrote a letter to Dahir asking him for the release of female captives and also strongly condemning actions of his forces. Raja Dahir didn’t agree to it and said in strong words that he would not release any of the captives. This is when Hajjaj asked Bin Qasim to arrange his forces and launch offensive for two reason.
1. Freedom of captives
2. Take Islam forward.
Raja Dahir was a cruel king and it was his over confidence which costed him Sindh and it was because of Mohammad Bin Qasim that Sindh was conquered in full.
Sallahuddin on the other hand was a great warrior who conquered Jerusalem and got high praise because he provided everyone a safe passage including the out going queen of Jerusalem.
As for SHIA’s
They are mis believers. They are lost. The beat themselves like mad people, They recite a wrong Kalma, They perform acts like Muta which is highly disregarded, Shia’ say present Qur’an is abridged where as the Original Qur’an is kept by Imam Mehdi. (Hazaar Tumhari Das Hamari, Page No. 553) etc etc etc…
I dont need to list down sources of the above mentioned ‘coz everone is aware of it that is it true. Shia’s are non believers and May Allah guide them on the right path.
Yes, I agree that Hazrat Imam Hassan was martyred cruelly and it is a very sad episode of islamic history but it is something he was destined for and this is what Allah SWT had writted. No one could change it then and no one can change it now.
The trues Islam is what Prophet Mohammad preached and his preaching did not have the Kalma version of shia neither it had Mutaa nor it had other ill sections which Shia’a have added…Shia’s are a dramatized community of non believers.
KW ,
You are confused a follower of Islam. You bring nothing but shame with your contradicting comments.
@Ash
Even “I will come back to your comments in a few hours.”
But, a quick note - again:
Quoting: “Hajjaj asked Bin Qasim to arrange his force to ‘take Islam forward’
Again a blunder that Bin Qasim ‘brought’ Islam to Sindh. Dear, there are a couple of ahadiths which I would like to cite without commenting on ‘em for you to give your judgment on ‘em:
01. When Imam Hussain(as) with others were going to Karbala, they were stopped at some point (not sure about the place, will tell u where). What Imam Hussain(as) said is the most precious gift Sindh could ever have. He(as) said, “If you don’t allow me to proceed to Karbala, let me go to Sindh.” (Why would he come to Sindh?)
02. I remember a religious scholar saying, ‘Janab-e-Ameer(as) has appointed some ’sheedi’ from Sindh as their treasurers’. I confirmed it with a knowledgeable person.
03. One of the wives of Imam Sajjad(as) was a Sindhi.
Up to you to deduct the conclusion…
@SAWJ
Bear!
I know you must be angry at me for prolonging this off-the-track discussion; but, i was majboor
AamizRaz,
I said
1. freedom of captives
2. Take Islam forward
But then again all this wont go into your head because Sindhi’s do tend to have something against Mohammad Bin Qasim. Its not your fault its fault of the teachings you have been given. If Mohammad Bin Qasim defeat Raja Dahir then you and I would probably be hindu’s. I thank Allah that I am not one but I dont know about you. Looking at your reservation about Mohammad Bin Qasim it seems like you are sad that you missed such an oppurtunity…
Regarding this discussion, well it seems like everyone has ran away from it even the author. Its a good way isnt it ? Bring up a conflicting and contradicting subject and when people start questioning it run away from it…..wait wait its just 4th of Muharram so is it because of preparation to beat yourself up like cray people ?
This discussion ends here. No more sectarianism on my blog. Don’t force me to turn off the comments people.
I’m busy for one day and you guys make a battleground out of this post.
Craziness.
Rida,
Thank you for the comment; it was a pleasure to know your thought process and how I have been sounding to you all the while. Let me try to answer your concerns and clear up the mess which my posts have unwittingly landed you into.
My intentions are just what I said to SAWJ in my first comment that I only want to observe on these pages the way people argue for or against certain beliefs. For example, how far is the intensity of a person’s stance is balanced out by substantial knowledge? After that, I have no purpose staying here and learn history. In a general sense, there is no novelty for me in this blog-post. The author has not unearthed new grounds which had so far been enshrouded from the eyes of both shia and sunni historians or kept into oblivion from general public, though the public itself doesn’t inquire a lot which is a different thing altogether.
Now to briefly comment on what you conjectured about my motives:
“a) that you do not believe these ahadith and events are true/actually happened.”
That may be or may no be so, but I am not trying to push any agenda of mine at least on this post. So you can be relaxed for now and try to make sense of what I am actually doing rather than what I might be doing. Fair enough? : )
“or b) that you BELIEVE in them but you just want to shake the confidence with which SAWJ has quoted the references.”
Once again, I may or may not agree with the things mentioned in this post. But even if I hold them to be true, I could still like to quiz someone who is trying to stand tall and challenging everyone so confidently to pick up the books and verify his claims. And what is so wrong with that? Intellectual con-men always remain a liability irrespective of the side they appear to take. So your preclusion of this option is in a way disappointing to me. It somehow suggests that as long as someone is saying something which doesn’t negate your overall understanding of an issue, you would not question him and try to establish for yourself his capacity to give you lessons?
Then you have given me some reasons as to why you believe the contents to be true. To tell you frankly, this is how majority of the people think including those who are opposing SAWJ. But SAWJ wants them to take a break for once to cross-check his sources and come out of the false cocoon he thinks they are living in which has been created by so-called scholars who either don’t know as much about history as SAWJ or are being dishonest with people for their own vested interests. And that is where things get interesting for me. I am curious to know how familiar is he with the very sources he is so confidently quoting for everyone to verify. The beginning was a bit less than promising as you have seen me raising the issue of the impossibility of actual verification of his sources due to his own oversight in quoting them properly. And in the course of making him understand that point, I discovered that he has only skimmed the sections which he deemed relevant. In addition, he doesn’t appear to be well versed with the way information is organized in some of the books he has used in his research. Now when you gather it all together, don’t you find the possibility of the presence of other sections which could have deemed relevant by historians belonging to the other side of the divide, so to say? After all, SAWJ himself says that his reading of those books is not exhaustive, is it?
And just to set something straight, no body doubts the high station of the grandsons of prophet PBUH. It is the honor and respect of a certain few besides them which is in dispute. Some think it to be mutually exclusive while the others don’t.
abey ali! tu khud parhta hai yeh lambey lambey comments?
PD: LOL!
@Brickwall: You can find the books in Allama Zameer Akhtar Naqvi’s library. And my only motive through this post was to let people know about the status of the Prophet’s second grandson, which most don’t know. For this, I needed to read only the sections I found relevant and exhaustive reading of the books is not required. Some books were known to me, some were pointed out to me by him. Perhaps, in the future I will add a snapshot of the book with the hadees for you.
@Saad: Abe parhne parhte hain yaar.
@Ash
Your answer about Bin Qasim matter has been answered by dear SAWJ on my blog where u left ur comment; do check it.
@all
Sorry for I said ‘ahadiths’ while i quoted some facts from history.
@SAWJ
I wanted to speak; but, i respect ur words and m ending up the discussion here. Waiting for some relevant platform.
Thanks bro. I appreciate it a lot!
Thank you so much for the kind offer SAWJ. It will be insha Allah of benefit for me to observe the response from your visitors to the scans you will put in your posts.
Another useful thing you mentioned was Allama Zameer Akhter being your guide. When the time comes, I will remember his name to know more about his views on history. But it is not my method to learn controversial history from someone whose knowledge is essentially as selective as of someone who has been shown some select passages from the books of history by a scholar of the other kind.
Take care and all the best.
His knowledge is not as selective as you think. For someone, who has read thousands of books, been doing that for fifty years now, and even those of other sects, as well as other religions, and even non-religious ones, history, philosophy, arts, you name it, “selective” is an inappropriate word. “Diverse” would be more suitable.
Totally agreed there; that’s why I said I would consider his views when the time comes.
But the point of having selective knowledge was made about you because your acquaintance with these books is selective, isn’t it?
On the other note, I have found followers of every scholar saying the same things as you have said about Allama Zameer Akhtar. Interesting?
My knowledge is indeed selective.
As for Allama Sahab’s knowledge, I say it after comparing him to other scholars. I’ve listened to many, both Shia and Sunni, and he takes the lead without any hassle.
Plus, he has countless Sunni fans also. Two of them, I’ve met and one of them is Aniq Ahmed, former host of Geo’s “Alif” and now ARY’s “Aghaz”.
That was indeed about to turn into war. Good you put an end to it.
So the whole post and comments by you and that lady Karachiwali were based on Allama naqvi. Interesting. Thanks for mentioning your source of knowledge. :-). I wish you would have done this earlier so that I would not have wasted my time filling your blog.
so your allama sahab is more like a ‘media Scholar’ like Ghamidi and others
I might be a fan of u2 but I don’t “believe in” their songs
I personally like to listen Talib Jauhri on 10th Moharram’s ptv sham-e-ghareeban but I get up as soon as he goes moves to second session which is more based on Shiaism. In this way I am also a “fan” of him
someone mentioned Hajjaj here. He was a cruel ruler and made life hell of several good friends of Allah of that time but Ummah will also be thankful for him that he Introduced “Aaraab”(Zer/zabar/Pesh) in Quran. I think this passion for Quran might save him from Hellfire. Allah knows the best.
@Ash: your comment reminds me a shair.
gay dono jehan say waiye sitam na idhar k rahay na udhar k rahay
na Khuda mila na wisal-e sanam, na idhar k rahay na udhar k rahay
Sawj, why comment is not being approved?
@Siras: Yeah.
@Imran: Your comment was caught up in the spam filter. Akismet is a good plugin.
Media scholar? If a prominent TV personality is his fan, that makes him a media scholar?
And it was Hazrat Ali (A.S.) who introduced the aaraab into Arabic, what do you think he was doing during the 25 years between Rasoolullah’s (S.A.W.W.) martyrdom and his own caliphate?
And you’re a fan of Talib Jauhari because you listen to some of his majlis. Yet I don’t see you taking advantage from his talk.
Your attitude towards the Prophet’s (S.A.W.W.) family gives the impression that Shias have a copyright over Imam Husain (A.S.), which in fact they don’t but you don’t get it.
Let me share a “shair” with you too:
Insaan ko bedaar to ho lenay do
Har qoum pukaray gi hamaray hain Husain (A.S.)
All the great names in Urdu poetry have written verses praising Imam Husain (A.S.) and condemning Bani Umayyah (L.A.). Pick up their dewans and read them.
Another one:
Islam ke daman mein bas is ke siwa kya hai
Ek zarb-e-Yadullahi (A.S.), ek sajda-e-Shabbiri (A.S.)
I think this passion for Quran might save him from Hellfire.
Hajjaj had a passion for Quraan, yet he was a cold-blooded murderer. And you’re hoping for him to get to Jannat. Boy, are your concepts straight or what!
SAWJ
Islam ke daman mein bas is ke siwa kya hai
pls keep shia-ism away from me.
Ali(RA) introduced Araabs?
Ok for you may be but the whole world knows about Hajaj’s “only” good work for Ummah
and don’t be a fanatic when you say hajjaj can’t be forgiven. Since when you got a contract of declaring others jahanumi and hypocrite?
I already said that Allah is the one to decide about him. what I said was based on his work plus a Muslim should not make baddua for other Muslim. Didn’t your naqvi sahab and your Islamic sources teach you about that?
All the great names in Urdu poetry
Do you mean mir Anis?
LOL. my dear most of urdu poets wasted their lives in praising women too. :-).
Leave it. I already told you my sect is different than yours and I am satisfied with what I believe so don’t make attempts. Thanks
Its a same thing over and over again isnt it? You know history and everyone else eats crap , innit mate? Now you have your reservations against Hajjaj as well.
Do us a favour, stop hijacking Islam with your Shia teachings. Dont dramatize something which happened years and years ago. It was war becuase of politics, it was sad how Hazart Hussain was martyred and how other events happened. The thing is it was soo many years ago that the trues accounts of it are not even there no more. Most of it is fabricated.
There were many others who have given sacrifices and their lives for Islam and I dont want to offend you here but Hazarat Hussain was not the only one of them. Shia’s have made out like this was the only war, this was the only sacrifice. It happened, it is sad. We should all carry Hazrat Hussain courage and work on Islam in this age rather than dramatizin it, beating yourselves mental and highjacking a religion of piece.
Islam has been highjacked by morons like you, your community all you do on 9th and 10th moharram is disrupt everything for the rest of the coutry….
*Country
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EBYRcdLw5Bk
please follow this link and watch this very interesting video on this whole issue.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EBYRcdLw5Bk
uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EBYRcdLw5Bk
uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EBYRcdLw5Bk
please add h t t p : / / to the above link and follow it.
its a reply by zakir naik and it explains and defends his statement….SAWJ write a letter to him and accept his challenge..
@Imran: Shi’ism? Oh I’m sorry, I didn’t know Allama Iqbal was a Shia.
And yeah, Hajjaj can be forgiven. So can be Abu Jahal, Abu Lahab, Marhab, Shaiba, Waleed, Utba, Firoun, Namrood, etc. Don’t curse the jews, they can be forgiven as well. Don’t curse America and Britain either then.
No true Muslim can be a cold-blooded murderer but I guess tiny heads are not sufficient to understand that. And the whole world literally does not know about Hajjaj’s “good work”. This is the first time I have heard this absurdity from someone.
And I didn’t mean Mir Anees only. I meant Iqbal, Ghalib, Mir, Dard, Dabeer, Sauda, Josh, Moonis, Habib Jalib, Faiz, etc. Include’em all here.
@Ash: I don’t think that your comment is even worth replying to. If all the books have been fabricated then why are the Sunni and Shia versions of Karbala so similar? And which books have been fabricated? Do you even know the names of those books? Or have you just passed a ‘fatwa’ without even knowing head or tail about anything?
And you can let Zakir Naik know about my next post. He can come and reply here.
@Ash
Quoting: “It was war becuase of politics”
OH MY GOD!!!
Hey, SAWJ, we found a doppleganger of Zakir Naik here - ASH!
@Imran
Look what Ghalib has said for Muawiyah(LA) and another person who Ahl-e-Sunnat hold very dear and ’sacred’:
“Ye ijtehad ajab hai k ek dushman-e-deen,
Ali(as) se aaky laRy, aur khatta kahen us ko!”
For confirmation, see Deewan-e-Ghalib. It’s taken from a Salam for Ahl-e-Bait(as). Look at among the last few ones.
So, now, according to Ghalib, whosoever comes to fight against Ali(as) - be it Marhab(LA), Muawiyah(LA) or Ayesha(wife of Muhammad(SAWW)) - all are dushman-e-deen (enemies of Deen)… and it can’t be called a ‘khatta’ (mistake)!
Not, SAWJ or me! It’s Ghalib!
@All, esp. Ash and Imran and other Sunni brothers and sisters
Go to this website and get answers with full citations: http://www.answering-ansar.org/
They have new flyers for Azadari and Juloos-e-Muharram. They have proved with references from Ahl-e-Sunnat resources (Ash, they are not Shia’s fabricated references, you can check ‘em).
May Allah Guide us all and help us be with the ‘Saadiqoon’(the truthful)!
Aamir, meray bhai, hausla rakh! Bolnay de jo bol rahay hain, kya farq par raha hai. There are other Sunni readers too, who are not getting in this debate. Why hurt their feelings? Chhor de, chill dude!
SAWJ boy I know you are pretty pumped up due Moharram. Hajjaj was a Muslim while rest of people you mentioned were not. Take a chill pill boy. You are tired now by defending your belief. so your sis Karachiwali.
@Aamir: the site you mentioned is a pretty famous Shia source(ind disguise of Sunni-ism) and Karachiwali also copied/pasted stuff from the site. Like you I also use Internet a lot bhai so don’t play with me.
So what? Ever heard about Munafiqeen, Imran? Hajjaj was a munafiq and no munafiq is going to Heaven.
And I haven’t even started defending my belief.
The site is Shia and it’s open knowledge. But the sources they provide are all Sunni and you can counter-check them to your heart’s content. And I don’t think Karachiwali even knows about it.
You use the internet a lot, it’s time you started using your brain too.
“I don’t think Karachiwali even knows about it. ”
That’s the biggest problem with her. She does not know what she talks about. She wrote what she was given to her. Things related to religion should always be verified. The lady did not realize it while she expressed her concerns about this particular issue and failed miserably to defend her own point of view. There are many source available out there which are fake and are available to misguide others. Khair Allah usey hidayat dey aur bhatakney se bachai. Ameen.
, it’s time you started using your brain too.
so now you choose to offend me rather defending your belief. Well done boy! You are really pumped up :). I better leave you for a while
By the way is she still following this post or not?
@Aamir: Ghalib was a shia and everyone knows that! why are you giving his source to prove your point. I heard actress Meera is a shia too so some of you will be quoting Meera one day?
My friend cursing Ayesha(RA), Omar(RA) or Abu Bakr(RA) is not making you pious than those who you actually curse on daily basis. I hope you guys get Hidayah soon.Ameen
Seems like everyone is a Shia, and you are the only Sunni left on this planet.
And as I said, I haven’t even started defending my beliefs. You are an offense to yourself, I don’t need to offend you either.
SAWJ and Amirraz….it was a political war and I know you wouldnt believe but when Yazid (R.A) heard the news that Hazrat Hussain he actually cried. Hazrat Hussain was martyred because of political hatred of people of Kufa and they didnt even let Hazrat Hussain go and meet Yazid (R.A) though Hazrat Hussain asked them to take him to Yazid (R.A)….. and lets say for instance we say that calling yazid (R.A) is not right and its a sin etc (what ever your belief says on it.. ok!) so we say for an instance that you are right….then why do you curse Hazrat Omar, Hazrat Usman , Hazrat Abu Bakkar and Hazrat Ayesha ? is cursing them not a bigger sin? they were all very very dear to Prophet Mohammad (PBUH)….
On one end you and your people curse all the dear people of Prophet (PBUH) especially Hazrat Ayesha, SHE was Prophets dear wife and his love for her was just amazing….. and on the other end you get upset about Yazid (R.A)…double standards innit?
And about your comments on Mohammad Bin Qasim well he was from Ummayad people so no doubt you will have hatred against him and Hajjaj as well. So lets not even go there. About Ghalib he never prayed to Allah he was more into Sharab etc so he wasnt even a pious Muslim….You, your references, your books everything is fabricated. May Allah SWT put your emaan on the right track.
One more thing mate start following Islam before you preach! The problem with pakistan is everyone wants to preach but no one follows what he/she says. Hijaab say lay ker namaaz tak, namaaz say ley ker zakaat tak and more and more in maulviyoon nay gumrah kerdiya hai qaum ko…
You have customized our Kalma, Azan and many other things….so you will always remain on the other side of the line
Imran, may Allah SWT bless you with everything for your knowledge and sharing it.
Quoting Imran: “Hajjaj was a Muslim while rest of people you mentioned were not.” and supporting with the words of SAWJ: “Ever heard about Munafiqeen…?”
Imran, the site I mentioned is a Shia site which ‘answers’ a sunni site “ansardotorg” (so, the name)… And, the fact that I mentioned the site doesn’t mean that my beliefs are based on knowledge i get from internet; it’s coz i cannot attach papers with my comments for you to check… dear!
And, my knowledge can be defective in some (I’m human), but I would like to tell you that my beliefs are based on what factors: I spent two years of my life, while studying pre-medical at college, studying religious books and meeting scholarly figures in their respective sects, viz. Shia and Sunni, trying to find out the truth… I literally read Sahaah-Satta (the six books of Ahadith of Sunni sect) along with Tibri, a history book,(i hope u know all of them…if not read, might have heard the names of…)
Take my word, they’re all filled up with whatever Shias believe… Not only that, they will offer a lot of *******!! And such are the sources which became the cause of the most condemnable works like Tha Satanic Verses and Rangeela Nabi (ma’azAllah!)
Shias have never asked you to read their books; AT LEAST, READ YOURS, man!! Read Bukhari, Muslim, Ahmed bin Hanbal…etc
Coming to the point i quoted above: The problem with Sunnis is that they DO believe that there lived Munafiqeen; but, they don’t really know who they were… If Shias mention some names, they would call them(shia) kaafir because they -the sunnis- believe whoever was with Rasool-e-Akram(SAWW) was a respectable sahaba!! Where did all the fu&*i*g Munafiq go then???? You say! You tell us. You only would be able to cite just ONE name, bet!
@ASH
Quote: “when Yazid (R.A) heard the news that Hazrat Hussain he actually cried.”
Oh my God! SAWJ, u saw that?? SO this man was another d***headed Sunni who believes that Yazeed(LA) cried over Imam Hussain(as) - also note that Ash typed RA with Yazeed(LA)’s name and not with Imam Hussain(as)’s!
Ash, have got a question for you: “If for the sake of argument, let’s suppose Yazeed(LA) did cry over the news of Shahadah of Imam(as), did he punish the killers? Did he give the prisoners -including Bibi Zainab(sa) and Imam Zain-al-Abideen(as)- any relief? Or let’s put it in even simpler words: ‘what followed Karbala waqea? What were Yazeed(LA)’s steps?”
And plz dont come up with that Yazeed(LA) dotted stalls for sabeel of sharbat and ‘niaz’, and laid farsh-e-aza so that people should go there and mourn Imam Hussain(as) - i mean he did not!
Say. What did he do when he was done with crying?
@Ash
Quoting: “..then why do you curse Hazrat Omar, Hazrat Usman , Hazrat Abu Bakkar and Hazrat Ayesha?”
Baat niklegi to phir doooooooooooor talak jaegi!
Leave it for the moment..
Kia sary aqeedy isi post k comments pe khatam karny hain???
Jab tak doosri post ka wait karty hain, write HW for you to do: Ask your people about:
1. Waqea Qirtaas
)
2. Where did ‘Ghaibana namaz’ originate?
3. What led to Jang-e-Jamal and Jang-e-Sifeen?
(I have many others to mentions here, even I can use ‘direct’ words, but I dont want this nifty blog get blocked or sth
Last one: Read the chapter of ‘Wafat-e-Nabi(SAWW)’ in Muslim. Read what Ayesha did just after Paighambar-e-Islam(SAWW) closed his eyes for this physical world? And, it’s rated five-stars by me as far as importance is concerned.
I know you have plenty of time these days; poor Shia are busy in hitting and beating their own chests and effect of chests of some other people
Good luck!
Jab kabhi zikr Husain ka bayaan hota hai
To bughz chehra-e-Iblees se ayaan hota hai
Kia ajab raaz matam-e-Shabbir mein hai
Haat parta hai yahan, dard wahan hota hai
*effects of which is felt on chests of some other people
(Ali, my comment is awaiting moderation.)
Not anymore!
Anybody home?? Hello!! Ho!!?
*Silence prevails.*
Chher khani mat karo!
call me ignorant but dividing a religion on the bases of historical disagreements is something the purpose of which i cannot see. as far as im concerned islam has 5 pillars and faith has 6. should that not be all? in times like these is this really the most pertinent thing muslims have to worry about?
why can the sunni populace not be secure in the knowledge of their accuracy? if they are correct shall it not be deemed so at the End?
and why does the shia segment feel the need to rise upto every possible challenge, veiled or open to what is essentially a debate over history?
history is but a collection of opinions according to those present at the time. current methods of documentation did not exist then and therefore unless you have a method of going back in time, the argument is and will be fruitless considering the benefits to be gained through resolution.
given the issues we have today i do not believe this should even be considered among the top priorities for muslims to sort out. regardless of who should have been what and who did what, no one doubts the essential rights and wrongs of the story. if some choose to take it more personally/seriously that remains their choice. others who do not, cannot be held guilty.
and by the way it is very easy for sunnis to declare shia believers to be non muslim or lesser, whatever the case may be. ive heard a lot about how sunnis have killed shias over such disputes and shias have retaliated. the question remains, instead of trying to “correct” shia believers (as radical sunnis believe is necessary) why kill them? who would agree to another opinion when his/her family members and/or acquaintances have died due to it? again, an excercise in futility and without no clear, humane goal.
Now that you ask for punishment of people who martyred Hazrat Hussain. Did Hazrat Ali punished the people who assasinated Hazrat Usman ? Nope He didnt….that doesnt mean that Hazrat Ali meant harm to Hazrat Usman does it?
You and your conspiracy theories have been proved wrong many times. Infact, the whole shia qaum is based on fabrication.
It was political war with shamefull result but that is how Allah SWT wrote it and that is how it happened. You cant change the history so stop going back to it and fabricating it.
By the way, talking about beating the chest etc are you trying to justify the silly thing of matam? oh one man has been sentenced to prison in U.K because he ripped his 3 year old son’s head with a knife on 10th moharram… Idots……
I agree with Ash & I feel SAWJ is confused & completely misguided. Do u think any Muslim is be happy with the matrydom of the Prophet (SAWS) grandson?
Besides.. if u are a true beleiver then accept Islam.. I would like to see u as a true Muslim rather than a “both”
Shias arent correct in any way
I agree with Ash & I feel SAWJ is confused & completely misguided. Do u think any Muslim is be happy with the matrydom of the Prophet (SAWS) grandson?
Besides.. if u are a true beleiver then accept Islam.. I would like to see u as a true Muslim rather than a “both”
Shias arent correct in any way
Jazakallah Assem Khan. May Allah SWT bless you.
This page finally seems deserted!…
Haath parta hai yahan, dard wahan hota hai!
Not deserted, everyone’s busy but they’ll be back, don’t worry.
Rona Hussain(as) par hai aqeedat Hussain(as) se,
Maatam ka silsila hai mawadat Hussain(as) se;
Seeno~ pe haath maar ke karty hain ye elaan,
NAFRAT YAZEED(LA) SE HAI, MUHABBAT HUSSAIN(AS) SE!!
Yes. Shias are busy. Didn’t you read that shair above some comments on this very page? Kahir, we’ll be back soon… Keep whatever you can crossed
@Assem Khan
Quoting: “Shias arent correct in any way..”
uaaaahhhuua! *yawns*
Aray mere paRhy likhy yaar, kuch to khayal kar … What d’u think the above comments - as many as 130 - carry? Have me and SAWJ and Imran and Ash taught you some nursery rhyms?
Ab dekho mujhy rona aajaega agar itni ignorance ka shandar muzahira karogy toh! Plz, have pit on me.. I dont want to cry over anything else than mourn Imam Hussain(as)!
Insaaf kejiye, is post main k jahan humne Shia ko defend kiya hai(yet, not with full attention, as we truly have no time at ths point of time), aap ko bhi moqa dena chahiye, say?
So, I’m thinking of creating an environment where Shias may pose questions on beliefs of Ahl-e-Sunnah sect… And I don’t know why my cute heart says you wouldn’t be able to come up with a single justification. Bet! Need a shair? Here you go:
Baadlo~ se dosti achi nahin, Faraz,
Kacha tera makaan hai, kuch to khayal kar!
@everyone
NOTE THIS VERY IMPORTANT POINT:
Plz read the above comments before commenting here ‘coz hundreds of questions have already been answered. and DON’T FOR HEAVEN’S SAKE COME UP WITH: “Shias arent correct in any way”.. PLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!
Just wanted to pose a little question to Imran, Assem, Noman and all the other Muawiyiites:
Is belief in the Caliphate of the Four Rightly Guided Caliphs an essential part of religion? Without belief in the Caliphate of any one of them, one becomes a kaafir?
All else stay quiet please. My question is only from the above mentioned people.
Kya faida itni kahani likhne ka jab ignore hona hi tha sigh.
Sorry man.
Very busy right now.
Not believing is something different then cursing caliphs…
I hope you are wise enough to understand this basic fact and read my comment whilst being impartial….. (This will be a long comment)
The Holy Quran specifically uses the term khulafa indicating a special favor of Allah to the people not only by granting them worldly power, but more specifically as a spiritual reward for their righteousness. In this sense, to retain the blessing of khilafat, vigilance is required as it is a test and a trail for righteous people. There a saying in Quran
“And He it is Who has made you khalaa’if (successors to win favors of God) on the earth, and then exalted some of you over the others in degrees of rank, so that He may try you by that which He has given you” (6:166).
Moreover, “Then We made you khalaa’if (successors) in the earth after them (i.e. the earlier generation), that We might see how you would act.” (10:15).
“Who answers the distressed person when he calls upon Him, and removes the evil, and makes you khulafa (successors) in the earth? Is there a God besides Allah? Little it is that you reflect” (27:63). Finall, In this verse the blessing of khilafat is closely connected with God’s answering prayer of the distressed, and removing a sorrowful state. Again, “Verily, Allah knows the secrets of the heavens and the earth. Verily, He knows full well all that lies hidden in the breasts. He it is Who made you khalaa’if (successors/vicegerents) in the earth. So he, who disbelieves, will himself suffer the consequences of his disbelief” (35:40). <———-A very important point
It has been recorded in Sahih Muslim, Kitab al-Imarah that Prophet Muhammad (P B U H) said “Whosoever comes to you while your affairs have been united under one man, intending to break your strength or dissolve your unity, kill him.”
“The children of Israel have been governed by Prophets; whenever a Prophet died another Prophet succeeded him; but there will be no prophet after me. There will be caliphs and they will number many (in one time); they asked: What then do you order us? He (saw) said: Fulfil bayah to them, only the first of them, the first of them, and give them their dues; for verily Allah will ask them about what he entrusted them with”
“When the oath of allegiance has been taken for two Caliphs, kill the latter of them”. One can see the evident importance of Caliphs and I am sure people here will see it too. These are some of the reason that all the caliphs need to treated with huge respect and dignity….Allah SWT please guide us all on the right path
It has been recorded in Sahih Muslim, Kitab al-Imarah that Prophet Muhammad (P B U H) said “Whosoever comes to you while your affairs have been united under one man, intending to break your strength or dissolve your unity, kill him.”
Do others (Imran, Noman, etc) also certify that this hadees is ’sahih’? Any more references for this hadees, please?
Hello?
all our diffrences aside all i knw is la ilhaililah muhmmad dur rasool allah saw and who so ever says ths is forver bonded to me in brotherhood. he is my right and im his left beyond tht each and evryone of us is allowed to hve his own opinion his own interpretiton which is solely his and to be judged right or wrng solely by allah so whenevr someone asks if im a sunni or a shia or wahevr i always reply im a muslim not a sunni not a shia jst a muslim i knw someone once tld me a hadith i donot remmber it correctly so its not a direct quote but in it our beloved PBUH said who so ever creates sects within religion will never entter paradise or smthn like it and also there is a narratiotion which 2 my head being filled so much useless stuff i sadly also do not remeber properly but it goes smthn like ths ke : there was a miltary march 2 smewhere and our beloved pbuh tld the sahbas R.A tht u will offer asr pryrs after u reach tht plce but as fate wuld hve it thy culdnt reach tht place before asr so sme sahbah R.A decided 2 offer their prayers then and there while others decided 2 offer their prayers whn thy reached tht place so whn prophet PBUH was mde aware of ths he said bth the groups were right
ps
we cannot coexist together coz in our futile attempts to prove each other wrong we donot relaize tht we may all be right
jaise gore kehten hain there is mre thn 1 way 2 skin a cat
u cnnt relaize the hate and shame tht i feel towards my self and u whn ppl tlk abt us coexisting together and the despair i feel whn i knw i can do nthn abt ths if anythn we shuld be tlkn abt coexstn with the jews or tht hindus or the christans not with ourselves . i mean how can u fix smethn thts not brkn we r one so we shuld sty tht way
Dear I salute u. U have done a great job. I could not suitable words for you. God may reward you.
Thanks a lot. Welcome to my blog!
Alright pals?
@SAWJ
Woah! I think you guys thought I disappeared from the face of your blog eh?
Nah matey, I was on a trip and didnt get around blogging.
Anyway, so you want some other references apart from Sahih Muslim, Kitab al-Imarah. So are implying that you dont trust the contents of Kitab -al-Imarah…. You are old enough to go through the book and find out…so take as your homework and go and research school boy
@Ahmed.
Mate the problem is Shia’s recite the wrong kalma. Not the one Hazrat Mohammad (PBUH) started his preachings on. That is what makes a difference , their hypocray, their so called fake mojaza’s…They have made Moharram as if Hazrat Hussain (RA) martydm was the only thing which happened in Moharram.
Let me share something with you all
The companions of the Holy Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him - ) asked;
“O! The Messenger of Allah (Peace Be Upon Him - ) has Allah (Glory be to Him) exalted the day of Ashurah over all other days.”
He (Peace Be Upon Him - ) replied;
“Yes, Allah (Glory be to Him) created the skies on the day of Ashurah and also the earths, and created the mountains on the day of Ashurah and created the Pen on the day of Ashurah and created the Tablet on the day of Ashurah and Hazrat Adam (may Allah be pleased with him) came into being on the day of Ashurah and entered him into paradise on the day of Ashurah and Hazrat Ibrahim (may Allah be pleased with him) was born on the day of Ashurah and pharaoh drowned on the day of Ashurah and Allah Tallah removed tribulation from Hazrat Ayub (may Allah be pleased with him) on the day of Ashurah and Allah Tallah accepted the repentance of Hazrat Adam (may Allah be pleased with him) on the day of Ashurah and Allah (Glory be to Him) forgave the slip-up of Hazrat Dawood (may Allah be pleased with him) on the day of Ashurah and Hazrat Isa (Jesus) (may Allah be pleased with him) was born on the day of Ashurah and Day of Judgement will be on the day of Ashurah.”
(Ganeeta Al-Talabeen pg.26 / 425, Tarteeb Shareef 57 / 756) …But due to self centered Shia’s its been portrayed that Moharram is only important for one and only one thing….
There is a reason Shia’s are hated soo much. My love is for Hazrat Mohammad (PBUH) all of the sahabi;s who dedicated all their lives for Allah, Islam and Hazrat Mohammad (PBUH) ….whoever tries to fabricate things, or preach their false believes in my enemy and MY religions enemy. Shia’s are kafir, doing shirk and dramaticzing the ever so great religion Islam…
Another stupid comment by you Mr. Ash. Welcome back!
Perhaps it would please you to know that the date of Ashurah carries with it many important events that happened, the most important being that of Karbala. Perhaps it would interest you that it all happened when Ashurah coincided with the 21st of March.
What I wanted to know was your belief whether the hadees was authentic in your eyes or not. Now that I do, here’s what I have to say dear boy:
It has been recorded in Sahih Muslim, Kitab al-Imarah that Prophet Muhammad (P B U H) said “Whosoever comes to you while your affairs have been united under one man, intending to break your strength or dissolve your unity, kill him.”
This hadees means that if a person tries to create fitnah in the Ummah when it is under one man’s rule (read Caliph), he should be killed. Now if the Caliph is a rightly guided caliph, the fourth one to be exact, and the fitnah guy is Muawiyyah (L.A.), don’t you think Muawiyyah (L.A.) deserved to be…ahem…killed?
Now don’t come running to me, saying that Imam Husain (A.S.) stood up to Yazeed (L.A.) because it was Yazeed (L.A.) who forced the battle of Karbala. Read my next Zakir Naik post, kiddo.
No need to explain the hadees to me. I know and understand it better than you do…Its probably brought to your kaum by Allah that you will always have lanat on you…
your this post was based on fabrication and so will the next post so why dont you run yourself a favour and stop dramatizing stuff and carry out more of your lies and fabrication…
You know what your sunni friends might not say it on your face but the laugh behind your back because of how you follow the shia barbarism…
oh by the way, does your name have a Syed in it as well ? because I would love to know how you are classified syed and yea please do put a post on Hazrat Abu Bakkar Siddiq (R.A)….I would like to see how much hatred do you have against him…
you are lame and will always remain lame on everything….
and yea instead of doing a little bit of matam every year why dont you and your kaum kill yourself…its will be a big sacrifice and we will all be free from your drama’s
Kya hua, meri baat ka jawab nahin mila?
And yes I am indeed a Jafri Syed and I have my ancestry tree to prove it. Unlike you, I know my fathers and forefathers. And did I mention that the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.W.) happens to be one of them?
And considering your far-fetched claims about being on the right path, when you can’t even get your concepts of Allah straight, you’re nothing but another unaware comedian to me.
hahah I dont need to prove my concepts to do…at your claims about your father and forefathers etc well I hope your dream ends soon with a reality check….
And I am Alhumdulillah on the right path and I am thankfull to Almighty Allah that I am not one of you…Zakir Naik did too right but put you all straight and Insha allah he will keep on doing it in the future as well…You and your fabrications need to be brought to justice….
hahah I dont need to prove my concepts to do
We can all see that.
And I didn’t know that Shias fabricated all the Sunni books above dude. Either that or Imam Bukhari, Muslim and all the other authors/compilers were Shia.
YAWN… you are boring now..do you not have any more matam to do? or any more fabrications to creat? any bleeding alams or any other mojazay to create…Makes me laugh!
@SAWJ
No need to talk to a person who seems so ignorant that he’s called all Sunni references ‘fabrications’, w/o even bothering to check it with his ulemas whether they were real Sunni references..
Let’s wait and see if another mard-e-mujaahid from Ahl-e-Sunnah to comes ahead and discusses the things scholarly, i.e. with proofs, rather than just throwing what has remained word of mouth for centuries…
@Ash
Let’s be frenz… I mean let’s try to R.E.A.D. each other’s comments and, having done that, try to understand them…
May Allah guide us all! (ameen)
LOL! He’s got nothing to say so he’s spewing filth now. Answer my question Ash.
I know… but, we can’t gather honey if we kicked the beehive away! ;p
We didn’t, he did!
Yup, i can see that… but, though i was all in the discussion, i thought u shouldn’t have asked the question regarding Khilafat being a part of religion or not; they weren’t of that level, simply! They wouldn’t answer such ‘technical’ question; see, how they bypassed it
Ali!!!! What’s that?? Seedhi tarha bol k main comment na post karoon… lekin ye moderation ki authority kia mere ooper hi execute karni hai???
Abe sorry yar. It’s an automatic plugin that’s been a real pain in the a** with Wordpress 2.7. But it also catches spam so it’s effective too. Don’t mind it.
Oh man, incompetentness dies here. I posted such a long reply supporting them through hadees and still you are stuck at that question?
Calling me filth, kiddo or whatever is just signs of your defeat. 2×2 lad is trying to preach religion. Its doesnt get any funnier does it?…By the way a little lesson of english for you. You never add title with anyones first name. It always goes with surname. So calling m Mr. Ash shows how ill equipped you are.
Before preaching comes practicing which obiviously you do only in Moharram. In the rest of the months you probably just are depressed with your sad love life , having fags and feeling sorry for your lame luck…tick tock tick tock…Syed Ali W Jafri, think outside the shiaism box and you will see the realities of world…Fibbing doesnt help, try to ask your inner self if you are on the right part, put some sense into your current practice and Insha Allah you will realize the righrs and wrong….
I fail to understand a few things about your sect…
why do you have a different Kalma? why do you pray to khaak-e-karbala? No doubt Hazrat Hussain (R.A) was dear to Prophet Mohammad (P.B.U,H) and that even bring more respect to Hazrat Hussain (R.A) but Hazrat Ayesha (R.A) was dear to Prophet Mohammad (P.B.U.H) as well and so was Hazrat Abu Bakkar Siddiqi (R.A) and the rest…where does your respect go then????
@Amir
Lets be Frenz?
I dont have anything personal against any shia, its the drama and the fabrications which annoy me and my fight is against the believes and it will always be there. If I see you as another human being then I have nothing against you…
by the way, its just a discussion, neither you will change your believes for me nor will I for you…. Insha Allah day of judgement will see Me standing on the right side….
Oh man, incompetentness dies here. I posted such a long reply supporting them through hadees and still you are stuck at that question?
Calling me filth, kiddo or whatever is just signs of your defeat. 2×2 lad is trying to preach religion. Its doesnt get any funnier does it?…By the way a little lesson of english for you. You never add title with anyones first name. It always goes with surname. So calling m Mr. Ash shows how ill equipped you are.
So you’re giving English lessons now?
Here are a few for you:
1) It’s incompetence, not incompetentness.
2) How the heck am I supposed to know what your first name is or your last name for that matter. For me you are Ash, literally. And I don’t mean Ashwariya so control the laddoos popping in your heart.
I never called you filth. But then again, you’re an English professor.
As for your hadees and references, I asked a question using one of them didn’t I? And you still haven’t satisfied me with an answer.
And when all else fails, start babbling on my love life and stuff. You have no idea how lucky I feel. I mean, I could’ve been you!
And I did think outside the Shiaism box Mr Ash, I gave you references from Sunni sources but you refuse to check and verify them. Instead, you keep calling them sources that were fabricated by Shias, so it looks like your Sunni box is getting smaller and smaller. Soon enough there will be nothing left except you.
If you care to look at our Kalima, you will find that it is similar to yours, except for the Ali an Waliullah part. We do believe in the Sunni Usool-e-Din that are required to be a Muslim but do you know what they are? We just have one more: Imamat.
As for Hazrat Ayesha and Hazrat Abu Bakar, you seriously haven’t gone through our books. I’ll give you a hint: do some research on the topic ‘Fadak’.
I am soo lucky I am not a lame one like you.
I am soo lucky that I am not shia like you.
I am soo lucky that my ancestors have come from where yours came.
I am soo lucky that my parents didnt lie about history to me.
You are sick in the head matey and about english, well incompetentness might not be a word but it fits your weakness.
Mr Ash , hahah laddo dont pop up in my head for Ashwariya Rai. Its kuffar to think about other women and I dont do it may be you do. oo by the way do read the following. I am off for another trip not back for 2 weeks. Please dont think it as your win. As long is your kuffar is there I will be there to fight it…
Kuffar ka badshah ban ker woh,
Deen ka sabak deytay hain,
hath rakho dukhti ragh per,
tu cheekh tu cheekh ker mujh say sawal kertay hain,
hai alag hi maslay teri kaum kay,
lanat dii khuda nay aur phir bhi apany app ko musalman kehtay hain,
kitabi batoon ka damaan choor ker,
insaan ki ankh say dekh,
koee wajah hay kay loog shiyaoon ko haiwan kehtay hain.
Pochtay ho sawaal kiyun mujh say,
jab khud jawab sunnay kay kail nahin,
tuhmatein tu hum bhi laga saktay hain mager,
koee wajah hai kay hum apnay app ko musalmaan kehtay hain,
Anyone who corrupts MY religion with your barbarism, drama, lies, deceit etc deserves the dust and you will bite it Insha Allah. Your kaum invited Hazrat Hussain (R.A) to kufa and then you betrayed HIM. That is how your maslak was in the past and that how is you will all be…Jhotay, Faraybi, Maqar, Muttaa kernay walay, Kalma kharab kernay walay, Azaan kharab kernay walay, Hazoor kay kareebi logoon ko gali deynay walay…Tum loog Insha Allah sari zindagi issi terha phitkaar main mertay rahoogay….
Until next time more Lanat for you and your kaum…
Indeed Mr. Ash, another crappy comment by you. I don’t think I’ll fall to the depths of indecency as you have done, probably because I don’t have to console myself about my beliefs by trying to trash others’. As for your win or my loss, people can see that for themselves. I haven’t resorted to trash talk whereas you have. That’s the most prominent sign of defeat in a debate, in case you’re not aware of the rules.
As for further comments, I shall reply only if they contain some substantial point in your favor or the answer to my question above.
Wahabi like Ash are the bane of Islamic world. They are cancerous lump in the Muslim world. They need to be eliminated. Starting with confronting their perverted ideology. They are threat to global peace and security. Abu Sufiyan, Muawiya, Yazeed they were all bastard because they were born out of wedlock.
From what I have read at wikipedia, fadak was land over which there was a dispute.
shiite muslims believe the prophet gave it to her as a gift and abu bakr withheld it from her. she is believed to be infallible and hence logically it is considered that it is abu bakr who is at fault.
sunni muslims believe that since she claimed the land immediately after the prophets deat, adn that abu bakr had the authority to keep it from her, fatima must have considered it inheritance. but since the prophets are not beleived to have followed the normal traditions of inheritance, this does not apply. they say it could not have been a gift since if it was, she would not have waited till the prophets death, nor would abu bakr have been in any position to declare judgement on it.
the sunni part makes more sense to me.
but once again i wonder, is this argument really worth the time? even if one side or the other is conclusively proved to be accurate in their historical accounts, what is gained?
@Ash
“why do you have a different Kalma?”
What makes you think that YOUR kalma is the ‘original’ one by default? I mean we could change the course by putting question the other way round: Why do Ahl-e-Sunnat have a different kalma?
Ash, I do need an answer to this question.
Again: “its the drama and the fabrications which annoy me..”
I wouldn’t reject you flatly, like Ali did
Actually, Ali, there were fabrications; will you reject this fact? See, you have a complete tenure of Banu-Ummaiya in which there were complete ‘campaigns’ FOR fabrications.. Can’t you see there are hundreds of books packed with such fabricated history and ahadiths?
Once again: “I am soo lucky that my parents didnt lie about history to me.”
‘coz they were told the same that they transferred to you, dear
“Jhotay, Faraybi, Maqar, ….”
Hope yours is ‘thanda’ after you threw those Urdu waly kalimat to all Shias…
This reminds me of a sth my professor at KU narrated: My friend lives in the UK. He speaks English quite fluently. But, he always says, ‘jab tak gaaliyan Urdu main nahin deta, kalejy ko thandak nahin milti..’
“Until next time more Lanat for you and your kaum…”
Rather say, ‘Jhooton per Allah ki laanat!’ I’m with you.
@SAWJ
Good that you didn’t comment in response.
@Ali Hassan
I’m sorry that your comment has the answer regarding query about Fadak but you failed to realize it; Bibi Fatima(sa) was definitely ‘infallible’, which means, I hope you know, means that there not a single chance that she(sa) could make a mistake.
Now, on the one hand, we have this Masooma(sa) who claims to own Fadak; on the other, we have Abu Bakr who is, no doubt, fallible and can make mistakes and blunders as a common human being does.
The die is cast, man! Even if Bibi Fatima(sa) - ma’azAllah - made a mistake by claiming ownership of Fadak, her quality of being Masooma (the one who can never make a mistake), which is confirmed by Qur’an (read Ayaa-e-Tat’heer) as well, makes it LOUDLY CLEAR that she’s the one who is right in this case. I hope this simple logic would prove my point.
Quoting: “even if one side or the other is conclusively proved to be accurate in their historical accounts, what is gained?”
Brother, by clearing this case, we’d be a step closer to identify the only sect which, according to Prophet(saww) is destined to Jannat… and, if we could make out who’s the right one in this case, we’d be able to keep away from having ‘two’ points of view which hinder us from recognizing the ‘Allah ki rassi’ (rope) that binds us together by helping us keeping many sects in the religion.
@Ash
I will miss you
@SAWJ
You have generated a digital manazra here. Yet, it’s sad to see that we don’t have any competent person from the other side who could analyze things we say…
@Ali Hasan: Fadak is an area that lies between Madinah and Khyber. On the way back from the battle of Khyber, after Hazrat Ali (A.S.) had conquered the seven forts, the Jews of Fadak met Rasoolullah (S.A.W.W.) half-way and offered half of their properties in return for amnesty from him.
“And render to the kindred their due rights, as (also) to those in want, and to the wayfarer: But squander not (your wealth) in the manner of a spendthrift.” (17:26)
Following the above freshly revealed verse, the Prophet gave Fadak to his daughter Fatimah (S.A.) as a pay back for the kindness, generosity and help of her mother Lady Khadijah (S.A.) whose entire fortunes had been spent on the nourishment of Islam and Muslims.
Fadak was taken away by the first Caliph, given back by Umar Ibne Abdul Aziz, taken back by Yazid bin Abdul Malik, Saffah Abbasi gave it back, Mansoor-e-Do-Anaqi took it away, Mehdi Abbasi gave it back and then Moosa Ibne Hadi Abbasi took it away again. This to and fro motion shows that Fadak was indeed considered to be Bibi Fatimah’s (S.A.).
Now you say that “since the prophets are not beleived to have followed the normal traditions of inheritance“.
Please read the Quran. It’s filled with verses where one prophet inherited from another, not prophet-hood but worldly things. For example, Hazrat Suleiman (A.S.) inherited one thousand horses from Hazrat Daud (A.S.). The Quran stands testament to the fact that Hazrat Yahya (A.S.) was the heir of Hazrat Zakariya (A.S), Hazrat Yousuf (A.S.) was the heir of Hazrat Yaqoob (A.S) and Hazrat Ishaq (A.S.) was the heir of Hazrat Ibrahim (A.S). Rasoolullah (S.A.W.W.) inherited five camels, one herd of sheep, one slave Shiqran, a sword named Masoor, house and a maid named Um-me-Aiman from his father Hazrat Abdullah (A.S.). Are these not the normal traditions of inheritance? Why is it that when it comes to Bibi Fatimah (S.A.) and Fadak, all the normal traditions of inheritance stop applying to the Prophet (S.A.W.W.)?
Please read this if you want more: Answering Ansar - Fadak. But please note that I am not responsible for whatever you may come across. You must do it of your own accord and will. I do not intend to delve into a debate at this point and this comment is as far as I’ll go. Thanks.
SAWJ:
i didnt say you were wrong. with the information present and logical thought, it just makes more sense to me. if it was indeed a gift given by the prophet in his lifetime, abu bakr ki koi hesiyat nahin banti wapas lene ki.
i wasnt there and historical accounts dating back to pre-modern methodologies of data accumulation are something i choose not to trust blindly. which is why i dont care to pass judgement on this.
AamirRiaz and readers in general:
dude, call me ignorant but i dont really care which of the prophets family is truly destined for jannat. my point is that this is an argument about history. people may feel more strongly about it since it is related to their faith and such lekin it is what it is. nearly all shia-sunni disputes are a battle involving who has more citations for their data.
all im saying is that whenever i think about what Allah would consider to be the greater issue muslims should be dealing with, it isnt this discussion over descendance. there are really too many separations already. this is not needed.
so far as i am concerned, the main purpose of being a muslim is to be a good person with respect to morality, ethics and the prevalent times.
if all of you, sunni and shia, are so concerned about proving yourselves in the eyes of your God, send donations to palestine, help the needy and dispel false accusations against your religion. that will be seen by your Lord with much greater approval than this dispute.
i for one will always prefer to be recognised as a muslim and not a shia or a sunni. there is but one islam, one quran and one prophet. sadly if i were to promulgate this stance and agar koi ghalti se maan bhi le, jis tarah ki duya hai that would probably create a new sect.
i wont be posting here anymore.
Your opinion is respected.
Your opinion is respected.
The rest is silence!! [eChO]
Is it?
He claimed to be going on a vacation for two weeks.
Granted!
Couple of things to reply here. Shias and Sunnis have some lovely beliefs that need to be addressed. (I am a sunni by the way)
Assertion 1 - “What makes you think that YOUR kalma is the ‘original’ one”
There is only ONE shahada.. that is given in Quran by Allah himself.
3:18 - Allah (Himself) is Witness that there is no Allah save Him. And the angels and the men of learning (too are witness). Maintaining His creation in justice, there is no Allah save Him the Almighty, the Wise.
The shahada is ‘There is no god but God”. No additions whatsoever. Shias and sunnis should not have problems with God telling them what shahada is right? Or you both would be asking God what is His source?
Assertion 2 - “Bibi Fatima(sa) was definitely ‘infallible’, which means, I hope you know, means that there not a single chance that she(sa) could make a mistake.”
Bibi Fatima was a human being. She was not an angel. She could have committed mistakes. EVEN Prophet Muhammad made mistakes! Why do you think God keeps telling us that he was a human being! To quote.. He got perturbed when a blind man came to him while he was in audience with an influential person.
80:01 - (The Prophet) frowned and turned away,
80:02 - Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).
80:03 - But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow (in spiritual understanding)?-
And.
66:01 - O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts …
All portraying him to be more of a human being. This is not done to ‘lower’ his status but that people should not start to idolize him.
18:110 - Say: I am only a mortal like you. My Lord inspireth in me that your Allah is only One Allah …
Assertion 3 - by clearing this case (whether sunni or shia is right), we’d be a step closer to identify the only sect which, according to Prophet(saww) is destined to Jannat…
Just like Jews, who keep repeating that they are the inheritors of paradise, shias and sunnis parrot this often. God asks them a simple question.
2:111 - And they say: “None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.” Those are their (vain) desires. Say: “Produce your proof if ye are truthful.”
So what proof do sunnis and shias have they are the chosen ones? God and His religion Islam are way democratic then todays muslims wildest beliefs. I’ll tell you something that will literally shock you. According to Quran.. ‘anyone’ can enter paradise - regardless of their religion! Only criteria is belief in one God.
2:62 - Lo! Those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
So stop fooling around with “God is in love with me only” crap.
Assertion 4 - Prophets Lineage (I am a syed!)
This is a joke. I swear by God. Noah could not save his son. Prophet Abraham could not save his father. Lot could not save his wife and you guys expect that Prophet Muhammad will save us? and why would he do that? Just becasue a person is a syed (shia or a sunni)? The only criteria in front of God is this..
49:13 - O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into
nations and tribes, that ye may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you ..
God will not check who is a Syed. He will not check your lineage. Prophet can not save you. No one is given precedence due to it. No one becomes a ‘true knowledge’ source if he/she is a syed.
Assertion 5 - Please read the Quran. It’s filled with verses where one prophet inherited from another, not prophet-hood but worldly things.
Wrong. No one ‘inherits’ prophethood. Its God will whom he chooses for prophethood.
16:02 - He sends down His angels with inspiration of His Command, to such of His servants as He pleaseth,
Assertion 6 - For example, Hazrat Suleiman (A.S.) inherited one thousand horses from Hazrat Daud (A.S.). The Quran stands testament to the fact that Hazrat Yahya (A.S.) was the heir of Hazrat Zakariya (A.S), Hazrat Yousuf (A.S.) was the heir of Hazrat Yaqoob (A.S) and Hazrat Ishaq (A.S.) was the heir of Hazrat Ibrahim (A.S). Rasoolullah (S.A.W.W.) inherited five camels, one herd of sheep, one slave Shiqran, a sword named Masoor, house and a maid named Um-me-Aiman.
There is no information in Quran like that wherein worldly inheritance was discussed.
Assertion 7 - Prophet Muhammad was a foreseer. He knew what will happen to his grandson.
Quran states that Prophet Muhammad was not a foreseer nor had knowledge of unseen (ilm e ghaib)
6:50 - Say: I do not say to you, I have with me the treasures of Allah, nor do I know the unseen, nor do I say to you that I am an angel; I do not follow aught save that which is revealed to me…
God’s opinion stands diametrically opposite to what shias an sunnis believe in. But hey.. you guys have a right to your beliefs. So carry on fighting
@SAWJ
Another fabrication. I said a trip not vacations. A trip doesnt classify as a vacation. I am away with work (unlike you, I have job to go to. LOL). By the way good work by Post Man.
Its sickening that you are question Kalma-e-Tayyaba. May Allah guide on the right path.
Meeting time!
3:18 - Allah (Himself) is Witness that there is no Allah save Him. And the angels and the men of learning (too are witness). Maintaining His creation in justice, there is no Allah save Him the Almighty, the Wise.
For belief in the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.W.):
Say: “O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided.” (7:158)
“Bibi Fatima(sa) was definitely ‘infallible’, which means, I hope you know, means that there not a single chance that she(sa) could make a mistake.”
Bibi Fatima was a human being. She was not an angel. She could have committed mistakes. EVEN Prophet Muhammad made mistakes! Why do you think God keeps telling us that he was a human being!
“Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled. And he does not say anything by his own desire. It is but a divine revelation, which is revealed to him. He has been taught by the Extremely Powerful.” (53:2-6)
Maybe Allah made some mistakes?
About the Infallibility of Bibi Fatimah (S.A.):
“And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.” (33:33)
80:01 - (The Prophet) frowned and turned away,
80:02 - Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).
80:03 - But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow (in spiritual understanding)?
I’m sorry, I never found any mention of the Prophet in these verses. Rather, I found that it was Hazrat Usman who turned his back.
According to Quran.. ‘anyone’ can enter paradise - regardless of their religion! Only criteria is belief in one God.
So now the Jews and Christians have started believing in one god, have they? Whatever happened to Jesus and the Trinity and Yahweh? I thought Allah classified them as Mushriks in the Quraan and guilty of the only unforgivable sin. Uh-oh!
What was the need for Islam then, my friend?
This is a joke. I swear by God. Noah could not save his son. Prophet Abraham could not save his father. Lot could not save his wife and you guys expect that Prophet Muhammad will save us? and why would he do that? Just becasue a person is a syed (shia or a sunni)?
Noah’s son Kinan was a stepson. Abraham’s father was Tarukh, not Azar. Azar was his uncle but he has been called Abraham’s father in the Quran. But then again, it was translated by humans. And how does Lot’s wife enter his ancestry? Was she also his father or son (nauzobillah)?
I never said that being a descendant of the Prophet (S.A.W.W.) will help me. Mr. Ash asked me and I replied, that’s it. You are drawing assumptions from it yourself, my friend.
As for Prophet’s (S.A.W.W.) intervention:
“We sent no messenger save that he should be obeyed by Allah’s leave. And if, when they had wronged themselves, they had but come unto thee and asked forgiveness of Allah, and asked forgiveness of the Messenger, they would have found Allah Forgiving, Merciful.” (4:64)
“So how will it be when We bring a witness from each nation (religion), and We bring you (O dear Prophet Mohammed - peace and blessings be upon him) as a witness and a watcher over them?” (4:41)
Wrong. No one ‘inherits’ prophethood. Its God will whom he chooses for prophethood.
Please read again, I never said Prophethood is hereditary, although if you study the lineage of the prophets, you’ll find that each prophet was either the son or father of another prophet. There is a continuous line of prophets from Adam which bifurcates into two after Abraham (A.S.). One line continues in the children of Isaac (A.S.), from whom came Jacob (A.S.), Joseph (A.S.), Zachariah (A.S.), Imran (A.S.), Yahya (A.S.) and Jesus (A.S.). And the other continues from Ishmael (A.S.) which leads to Muhammad (S.A.W.W.). You won’t find any prophet apart from this lineage.
I know, the point that will be raised here is that of Rasoolullah (S.A.W.W.) but for that you need to study the concept of Prophethood. There are two types: Prophet-for-the-people (Nabi-e-Natiq [Isaac's lineage]) and Prophet-for-self (Nabi-e-Batin [Ishmael's lineage]). Won’t go into the details here, I’m not a preacher or scholar.
Hazrat Suleiman (A.S.) inherited one thousand horses from Hazrat Daud (A.S.). The Quran stands testament to the fact that Hazrat Yahya (A.S.) was the heir of Hazrat Zakariya (A.S), Hazrat Yousuf (A.S.) was the heir of Hazrat Yaqoob (A.S) and Hazrat Ishaq (A.S.) was the heir of Hazrat Ibrahim (A.S). Rasoolullah (S.A.W.W.) inherited five camels, one herd of sheep, one slave Shiqran, a sword named Masoor, house and a maid named Um-me-Aiman.
There is no information in Quran like that wherein worldly inheritance was discussed.
“And Solomon was David’s heir. And he said: O mankind! Lo! we have been taught the language of birds, and have been given (abundance) of all things. This surely is evident favour.” (27:16)
Now if Solomon did not inherit prophethood from David, what exactly does Allah mean by ‘heir’?
Quran states that Prophet Muhammad was not a foreseer nor had knowledge of unseen (ilm e ghaib)
“And your companion is not insane. And indeed he saw him (Gabriel) on the clear horizon. And this Prophet is not miserly upon the hidden.” (81:23-24)
God’s opinion stands diametrically opposite to what shias an sunnis believe in.
God does not have an opinion. He has knowledge, and authority, which he chooses not to exercise. Having an opinion makes him vulnerable.
Funny book, isn’t the Quran?
You see, to understand each and every verse of the Quran, you have to know it’s background, when it was revealed, who was present, etc. The Quran is not a human text, it is Allah’s word. Understanding it is not as simple as just reading it. Each and every verse has multiple meanings and implications.
According to Ayatullah Khoei, each verse of the Quraan has one visible meaning and at least seven hidden meanings!
So you see, understanding what the Quran says is not an easy task. A vast ocean of knowledge is required to understand it.
@Ash: Man you’re making life hard for yourself!
@PostMan
Assertion 7 - Prophet Muhammad was a foreseer. He knew what will happen to his grandson.
Quran states that Prophet Muhammad was not a foreseer nor had knowledge of unseen (ilm e ghaib)
Not writing a ’scholarly’ answer as such, just a small logic:
1. The Qur’an is the word of Allah and is packed miraculously with every single event which had happened centuries ago or will happen till the Day of Judgment. (Agree?)
2. Huzoor-e-Akram(saww) was the greatest scholar of the Holy Qur’an and, thus, knew meaning, and implications - otherwise, tafseer - of every single verse of it.
3. Juxtaposing the above both, we get that Muhammad(saww) knew each and every thing which had happened centuries before, or are (were?, according to your belief) yet to happen.
Worked?
@SAWJ
Thnx for answering on for me.. the objections (assertions?) the PostMan delivered to this bloggie
@SAWJ (but, addresses others
)
Quoting: You see, to understand each and every verse of the Quran, you have to know it’s background, when it was revealed, who was present, etc. The Quran is not a human text, it is Allah’s word. Understanding it is not as simple as just reading it. Each and every verse has multiple meanings and implications.
Ali, c’mon! Who are you speaking to? Do you think who they are followers of?
Don’t you remember Qirtaas incident? So, it’s we - the Shias - who truly believe that there has to be someone like a Guide - in our case, Imam(as) - who could explain to us, the naaqisul aql, the hidden, and obvious, meanings of the Qur’an. Otherwise, they would go with their ‘man’ who said (and they believe, I guess, as the careless citations by the PostMan show): “Hasbana kitaaballah“! (For us, the Book of Allah will suffice (implying that we do not need any guide in order to understand it).
BTW, quite detailed answer. Jazaak Allah
(Poor me is a bit busy these days;ergo, couldn’t come over to answer the Mailman… uh, i mean, the PostMan)
I was sure of typos in the above reply
I’ll be more specific so that you could reply to them.
1 - Shahada
You quoted verse 7:158 for me in my quote of 3:18. Shias and sunnis both have a kalima - both of them are not in Quran. The verse that I quoted mentions the shahada, as it should be, from God himself. I guess we both believe Him to be the ultimate source right? Verse 7:158, just like many verses in Quran, is telling us to obey the prophet. It does not suffice as your reply.
2 - Bibi fatima and Prophets infallibility
You quoted 53:2-6, again which does not serve the purpose of discussion. When God say ‘Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled’ - He means that what prophet is uttering in the form of revelations from God, he is not insane.
Regarding infallibility of BiBi Fatima, you quote “And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.” (33:33).
Complete the whole verse brother.
33:33 - And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.
Its a guidance for women closer to the Prophet, hardly a sign of infallibility. In fact it gives more credence to the statement that they were humans and could commit mistakes. Why would Allah tell them how to behave when supposedly they wont be committing any mistakes?
Regarding my quoted verses in which (supposedly) prophet turned away from a blind man when he approached him, you say “I’m sorry, I never found any mention of the Prophet in these verses. Rather, I found that it was Hazrat Usman who turned his back.” Lovely. You could not find prophet in it but found hazrat usman instead. And how did you do that? And why did you not reply to my other quoted verse in which Prophet is being specifically asked to refrain from banning a certain thing? Which character would you place there in place of him?
3 - Anyone Can Enter Heaven - Even Jews
Could not digest the quranic verses eh?
fret not. Nobody in shia sunni fraternity can. Read again my brother. I quote “According to Quran.. ‘anyone’ can enter paradise - regardless of their religion! Only criteria is belief in one God”. Anyone believing in trinity or believing a prophet to be equal to Gods characteristics - is destined to the same fate as you stated. Muslims consider themselves superior race, just like Jews do. Anyone who commits shirk - is out. Even a muslim committing shirk is out. A christian who believes there is only ONE god.. will enter paradise no matter how much muslims protest :p And verse 2:62 is testament to this. So tell me, can God commit mistake?
4 - Prophets Lineage
When I wrote ‘Noah could not save his son..’ you replied that it was not Noahs real son or that Abrahams real father was someone else. Brother, focus again. Why God did not tell us what you are telling instead? Because the issue is not ‘for whom the request’ is being made rather ‘who is making’ the request! ‘Noah’ could not save X, ‘Abraham’ can not save X, ‘Lot’ could not save X, Prophet Muhammad cannot save anyone. get it?
You say “I never said that being a descendant of the Prophet (S.A.W.W.) “. My reply was a general reply to anyone considering himself/ herself superior to others being descendants of Prophet.
5 - Prophets Intervention
Explain what is ‘intervention’. And I have the verse prepared for your reply.
6 - Hereditary Prophethood
You say you did not mean that prophethood is hereditary. My apologies, I thought wrong. BUT sons being Prophets as their fathers were, does not indicate that it is considered a superior thing by God. It was His wish that a son should be a prophet - and so be it. No one is given precedence just because he is a son of a prophet.
7 - Prophet Muhammad as Foreseer.
You quote “”And your companion is not insane. And indeed he saw him (Gabriel) on the clear horizon. And this Prophet is not miserly upon the hidden.” (81:23-24)” Read verse 22 before it and verse 25 after it and it will tell you that revelation of Quran is being mentioned. It does not say anything about prophet being the foreseer. You dont trust this verse wherein God himself asks prophet to say this? “6:50 - Say: I do not say to you, I have with me the treasures of Allah, nor do I know the unseen, ..”
8 - Quran
your quote “The Quran is not a human text, it is Allah’s word. Understanding it is not as simple as just reading it. Each and every verse has multiple meanings and implications.”
Had it required specialized knowledge then rest assured it would have been specifically sent for religious scholars and God would not have asked you, everywhere in Quran, ‘Do you not think, do you not take heed?’ So read four yourself Quran a bit instead of feedings from religious scholars and leave the hidden meanings for later.. they are by definition hidden.
Moderation blues!!
Brother Aamir.. I guess its only a message. I can see your reply. I think you can see my comment too?
AamirRiaz: “Not writing a ’scholarly’ answer as such, just a small logic:
1. The Qur’an is the word of Allah and is packed miraculously with every single event which had happened centuries ago or will happen till the Day of Judgment. (Agree?)
2. Huzoor-e-Akram(saww) was the greatest scholar of the Holy Qur’an and, thus, knew meaning, and implications - otherwise, tafseer - of every single verse of it.
3. Juxtaposing the above both, we get that Muhammad(saww) knew each and every thing which had happened centuries before, or are (were?, according to your belief) yet to happen.
Worked?”
Sorry. It does not. How about following an even simple thing than that? Verse 6:50? “Say: I do not say to you, I have with me the treasures of Allah, nor do I know the unseen, ..” ??
I will not bother to answer your comment brother PostMan. I see already that it’s fruitless. Plus my comments at the end have gone unheeded. No problem.
Just an advice and a question:
Advice: Do study the Christian faith my friend. And the Jewish one too. If anyone can go into heaven then it’s not necessary to be a Muslim, is it?
Question: Does the Quran explain why the first verse sits in the middle of the Quran? Chapter 96 to be exact? Shouldn’t it be in the beginning?
As you wish my brother. I had hardly thought of it as fruitless and I was expecting a discussion. Anyways, may God bless you peace and happiness.
By the way I replied to your comments as a whole under ‘Quran’ - I wont deny I missed out something.
Regarding your question… Read verse 2:62 again and again. Also read 5:69 if you want to.. ANYONE can enter heaven provided he believes in Oneness of God. Yes! you don’t have to be a muslim (brand name) per se.. A hindu.. who says he believes in One lord.. will have his recompense from Allah. Its Allah’s promise. (Islam is submission to God)
Regarding your second question. Honestly I do not know, neither Quran I guess specifies why Suras are in a particular order. But then again.. Quran also does not tell us about preventive measures for cyber pornography now does it?
Peace brother
Anyone can enter heaven provides he believes in the Oneness of God. What I don’t understand bro is how do Christians, Jews and Hindus fall into this category? They don’t believe in one God, as far as I know.
Honestly I do not know, neither Quran I guess specifies why Suras are in a particular order. But then again.. Quran also does not tell us about preventive measures for cyber pornography now does it?
When the Quran cannot specify somethings about itself, how can it be trusted to specify many other things? This only means that the Quran does not hold all, does it?
You can not understand because you have been told, as I have been, that only muslims will enter paradise and ’submitters’ can only be muslims.
22:40 - … And had there not been Allah’s repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah’s name is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, Mighty.
God is saying that His name is taken in churches, synagogues and not only mosques. Why would He say so if everyone was a ‘mushrik’?
You are not getting it brother… A hindu does not automatically mean mushrik. What if he believes in only one God? Labels don’t matter.. its what you do that does.
Verse 2:62 and 5:69 are great verses
SAWJ: “When the Quran cannot specify somethings about itself, how can it be trusted to specify many other things? This only means that the Quran does not hold all, does it?”
What do you think of this verse?
6:114 - Say: “Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail.” …
?
See. Everything that ‘needed’ to be told.. has been detailed. Rest is your wish.. whatever you want to extract out of it 
God says its detailed. You think its not? I guess I’ll go with God
Yes indeed. But do they believe in “Allah”? As we need to? What about Jesus being the son of God? Doesn’t Allah say that he has no son in Surah-e-Akhlaq?
And I don’t mean that being a Hindu means being a Mushrik, only being a polytheist does so. Now Hindus are polytheists, aren’t they?
And I need some clarification and help on this brother:
When the Quran cannot specify somethings about itself, how can it be trusted to specify many other things? This only means that the Quran does not hold all, does it?
Thanks.
Oh, sorry, your comment went into moderation.
But I don’t see the order of the Quran explained in detail, in the Quran, my friend. That is leading to confusion.
O bhai kidher phuns gaya hay!
Anyone who says there is a son of God, or says someone is equal in qualities to God is out of Gods favour! Be that christian, jew, or muslim! He committed shirk.
If a person living in a remote tribe of Congo says there is only One lord of this universe called HonkaBonka, he does good deeds and is aware that his acts will judged.. is saved! Simple.
SAWJ: “But I don’t see the order of the Quran explained in detail, in the Quran, my friend. That is leading to confusion.”
Why do you need the order of Quran explained? Is it necessary? Perhaps God did not find the need to tell you that its needed to understand Quran. 6:114 says its detailed… I say its detailed. God also did not tell you how to sleep did He?
Anyone who says there is a son of God, or says someone is equal in qualities to God is out of Gods favour! Be that christian, jew, or muslim! He committed shirk.
That’s what I was saying.
If a person living in a remote tribe of Congo says there is only One lord of this universe called HonkaBonka, he does good deeds and is aware that his acts will judged.. is saved! Simple.
What if that HonkaBonka has attributes that clash with those of Allah’s? Zoroastrians believe in one God na, the Sun God? Budhists, Jains? Are they all on the right path? If people were already on the right path, why did Allah feel the need for Islam?
Why do you need the order of Quran explained? Is it necessary? Perhaps God did not find the need to tell you that its needed to understand Quran. 6:114 says its detailed… I say its detailed. God also did not tell you how to sleep did He?
What if one verse lies in Surah Al-Baqara and the other is in Aal-e-Imran? Or Nisa? Or Takweer? Or Dahar? If it’s distributed in such a way, how can it be understood easily?
Plus, when was the Quran compiled? I don’t think it was Rasoolullah (S.A.W.W.) who had it done, did he? I could not find a reference to it brother.
“What if that HonkaBonka has attributes that clash with those of Allah’s?”
If the person thinks there is One Lord of all the universe.. then call it Allah or HonkaBonka it does not matter and their attributes wont clash. If they clash.. it means they are two separate entities.
“What if one verse lies in Surah Al-Baqara and the other is in Aal-e-Imran? … If it’s distributed in such a way, how can it be understood easily?”
You don’t need such arrangement brother to understand Quran. I have been reading Quran for quite sometime now. These are ‘accusations’ against Quran so that you don’t read it. How many times have you read it with translation my brother?
“Plus, when was the Quran compiled? I don’t think it was Rasoolullah (S.A.W.W.) who had it done, did he? I could not find a reference to it brother. :(”
Compiling, its order, its explanation is the task of God - not even of Prophet. How do I know? because God told me so..
75:16 - Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur’an) to make haste therewith.
75:17 - It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it:
75:18 - But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated):
75:19 - Nay more, it is for Us to explain it
“If people were already on the right path, why did Allah feel the need for Islam?”
Another misconception in muslims - that Prophet Muhammad ‘invented’ Islam. Islam means submission to will of God. Abraham was the first Prophet who was called ‘muslim’. Prophet Muhammad was advised to follow ‘religion of Abraham’. He was not given anything new.
22:78 - And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive. He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation);
2:130 - And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly?
If the person thinks there is One Lord of all the universe.. then call it Allah or HonkaBonka it does not matter and their attributes wont clash. If they clash.. it means they are two separate entities.
Indeed they are. How many people believe in one god with all the attributes of Allah? Why was Islam needed when there already were believers present? Allah could have promoted their religion.
You don’t need such arrangement brother to understand Quran. I have been reading Quran for quite sometime now. These are ‘accusations’ against Quran so that you don’t read it. How many times have you read it with translation my brother?
If I take a book, jumble up all the sentences, would it still make sense? I’m not accusing the Quran, and I have read it, even the translation. But my problem lies with the fact that it was translated by humans. You will find many things in parentheses “( )” in the Quran that were put there by the translators. How did they know what to put in those parentheses?
One example is the Hazrat Usman verses I pointed out above. You can find different translations for those verses and some connect the Prophet to them and some connect Hazrat Usman. Now which one will you trust?
Compiling, its order, its explanation is the task of God - not even of Prophet. How do I know? because God told me so..
75:16 - Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur’an) to make haste therewith.
75:17 - It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it:
75:18 - But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated):
75:19 - Nay more, it is for Us to explain it
Then God made mistakes regarding the order he revealed those verses in, I believe. And if God told so, where in the Quran is it mentioned that put such and such surah here and another over there? I don’t believe Quran says anything like that then how did God tell to do it the way it is?
Another misconception in muslims - that Prophet Muhammad ‘invented’ Islam. Islam means submission to will of God. Abraham was the first Prophet who was called ‘muslim’. Prophet Muhammad was advised to follow ‘religion of Abraham’. He was not given anything new.
If he wasn’t given anything new, why was he a Rasool? If there already was a complete religion before, what was the need for Islam? Prophet Abraham could have been the last Prophet but that is not so. There are many many Prophets after him, two of whom were given books, the Injeel and the Quran. Prophet Abraham, on the other hand, was not. Were all the Prophets after him called Muslims too? And does Quran say that he introduced a new religion? If not, then there must be Muslims before him too.
Pickthal’s translation of 22:78 uses the word ‘faith’ for this verse. Ahmad Raza Khan uses ‘religion’. Yousuf Ali uses ‘cult’. All three have different meanings. Which is correct?
“Indeed they are. How many people believe in one god with all the attributes of Allah? ”
God has the stats. Frankly, protect your rear :p Dont worry about others.
“Allah could have promoted their religion.”
Thats what He is doing
“But my problem lies with the fact that it was translated by humans. You will find many things in parentheses “( )” in the Quran that were put there by the translators. How did they know what to put in those parentheses?”
Read multiple translations
Frankly I dont read what is in the paranthesis.
“One example is the Hazrat Usman verses I pointed out above. You can find different translations for those verses and some connect the Prophet to them and some connect Hazrat Usman. Now which one will you trust?”
I quoted that in context of Prophet committing a mistake. If you think that verse does not fit there.. so be it. I made a reference to Sura Tehreem. That should do the purpose for that context. The point here is not to ‘hide’ from the issue but to seek guidance.
“Then God made mistakes regarding the order he revealed those verses in, I believe. ”
Good for you for you believe so!
“And if God told so, where in the Quran is it mentioned that put such and such surah here and another over there?”
He no where mentioned so. He says He’ll compile and promulgate it.. I say He compiled and Promulgated it! Whatver method He adopted I am not concerned with that
“If he wasn’t given anything new, why was he a Rasool? If there already was a complete religion before, what was the need for Islam?”
Ask God why He made Muhammad a Prophet brother! It was His wish. God tells us that His teachings had been made available to the generations of humans - they kept losing it or it got corrupted. Quran is the Final Testament - no guidance in form of revelation after it. The End.
“Pickthal’s translation of 22:78 uses the word ‘faith’ for this verse. Ahmad Raza Qadri uses ‘religion’. Yousuf Ali uses ‘cult’. All three have different meanings. Which is correct?”
Call it ‘millat e Ibrahim’… so what? He was called the first muslim and Prophet Muhammad was told to follow him. Concern yourself with that. (damn.. now I know what will you ask next.. and it’ll get longer)
@SAWJ
Guess what..I am back for a bit.
Well I am not making life difficult for myself. I am making life difficult for you.
Anyway, I think my brother Postman is having a very good discussion with you so I wont come in betweeen of it now.
But I will say that Allah SWT has said that there are things which are beyond our undestanding and we should leave them that way and not question them. There are things in the universe which are beyond human comphrehension and we should just leave them the way they are.
When anyone starts questioing Allah authority, HIS books concreteness, HIS prophet’s credibility then it leaves no doubt that imaan is weak……
Faith is another word for religion and Cult means a religious group so they all mean the same. STOP the drama and sort your believes out. Read the right kalma, says the right namaz, avoid drama and fabrication and you will soon stop being under all the dilema’s….
God has the stats. Frankly, protect your rear :p Dont worry about others.
That is indeed what I’m trying to do.
I quoted that in context of Prophet committing a mistake. If you think that verse does not fit there.. so be it. I made a reference to Sura Tehreem. That should do the purpose for that context. The point here is not to ‘hide’ from the issue but to seek guidance.
That is indeed what I’m doing. The Quran doesn’t seem self-explanatory here as evident from the comments above. There are contradictions everywhere. Allah says above the Prophet does nothing off his own accord, yet he made mistakes. This puts the blame on Allah for misguiding the Prophet, does it?
Read multiple translations
Frankly I dont read what is in the paranthesis.
I saw the Prophet’s name in the parentheses in the translations. If you don’t read the parentheses, how do you know it was the Prophet who turned his back?
He no where mentioned so. He says He’ll compile and promulgate it.. I say He compiled and Promulgated it! Whatver method He adopted I am not concerned with that
You should be. He said He compiled and promulgated it. Why in the incorrect order? If the Quran was revealed in a certain order, why not maintain that order? And since, the revelation order is not the same as the compilation order, something must’ve happened in between that changed the order. I want to know what.
Ask God why He made Muhammad a Prophet brother! It was His wish. God tells us that His teachings had been made available to the generations of humans - they kept losing it or it got corrupted. Quran is the Final Testament - no guidance in form of revelation after it. The End.
How do I ask God? Frankly, if I keep saying “Ask God” to every question I get about the Quran, let’s say from Non-Muslims, won’t they think I’m an idiot? They’ll doubt the credibility of my religion and the Quran.
Call it ‘millat e Ibrahim’… so what? He was called the first muslim and Prophet Muhammad was told to follow him. Concern yourself with that.
I don’t get it bhai. Why not just reveal the Quran to Abraham and be done with it? Why wait till Muhammad (S.A.W.W.)? Why send so many prophets after Abraham?
(damn.. now I know what will you ask next.. and it’ll get longer)
I’m only asking you to help me brother. You have studied the Quran so you can tell me. If you can help me strengthen my Iman, is there anything wrong with it?
So far, I’ve only been able to accumulate that the Quran does not hold all answers. Even about itself!
We have multiple translations by different people, each meaning something different. ‘Faith’, ‘cult’ and ‘religion’, as Mr. Ash pointed out wrongly, are not interchangeable words. Which is correct?
And seriously, if the Quran is an easy book, why send a prophet for it? Why not just reveal it to the people themselves? If Allah can send Wahi on a honey-bee, a spider, the mothers of Jesus and Moses, why not to the Quraish? And even then, why send a man who commits mistakes? Couldn’t he have made an infallible?
Frankly speaking, the claims of the Quran about it’s own authenticity won’t stand in the eyes of the non-believer. I will believe it but would a Non-Muslim?
as far as sending the quran to an everyman is concerned, a prophet is necessary since he is generally one whos character is considered by his peers to be trustworthy. for example our prophet was illiterate. and considered to be the most honest man in makkah. surely these credentials would help him in his quest since people would have a hard time accusing him of falsehood and/or saying he made it all up.
the greatest understanding of the quran can only be achieved through a mastery of arabic since a lot of things are lost in translation. i believe in MA Islamiat, arabic is a mandatory course for this very purpose.
i agree with the “honkabonka” and fallibilty theory. though my knowledge is limited, islam has always been rooted in logic. ti make one human so that people do not consider him a god makes all the sense in the world.
btw religion faith and cult are not the same. look up the definitions. islam has repeatedly been singled out as a faith, not a religion.
A religion is a set of stories, symbols, beliefs and practices, often with a supernatural quality, that give meaning to the practitioner’s experiences of life through reference to an ultimate power or reality.
Faith is a belief in the trustworthiness of an idea or person. Formal usage of the word “faith” is usually reserved for concepts of religion, as in theology, where it almost universally refers to a trusting belief in a transcendent reality, or else in a Supreme Being and said being’s role in the order of transcendent, spiritual things.
“That is indeed what I’m doing. The Quran doesn’t seem self-explanatory here as evident from the comments above. There are contradictions everywhere”
Time out bro! You are exercising your brain too much! Extrapolating way too much than is required.
How can you deduce that Quran is not self explanatory? And what contradictions? Why are you so obsessed with ordering of Suras and where is the problem do you see? Do you expect it to be Dan Browns thrillerwhere every next chapter would reveal the mystery leading to the climax at chpter 113 andepilogue in chapter 114? it wont!
He revealed the Quran in 23 years.. revealing verses as He deemed fit. Concern yourself with whole of Quran.
“I don’t get it bhai. Why not just reveal the Quran to Abraham and be done with it? Why wait till Muhammad (S.A.W.W.)? Why send so many prophets after Abraham?”
You should be asking ‘why START with Abraham at all?!’ Brother. Humans dwell on earth so humans were sent with guidance. He has been sending humans as Prophets till the time of Prophet Muhammad when the final testament was revealed.
“If Allah can send Wahi on a honey-bee, a spider, the mothers of Jesus and Moses, why not to the Quraish?”
I think He did send wahi to Quraish.. through Prophet Muhammad
“And even then, why send a man who commits mistakes? Couldn’t he have made an infallible?”
23:24 - The chiefs of the Unbelievers among his people said: “He is no more than a man like yourselves: his wish is to assert his superiority over you: if Allah had wished (to send messengers), He could have sent down angels; never did we hear such a thing (as he says), among our ancestors of old.”
6:9 - If We had made it an angel, We should have sent him as a man, and We should certainly have caused them confusion in a matter which they have already covered with confusion.
Are you confused regarding Quran or regrading what has been ingrained in you since childhood?
Sorry I wont be able to post for couple of days. I Am out of internet mercy.
Peace
Let me know when you come back bro.
I am back in my own office due to cost cuttting measures but as you might have I am pretty busy at karachiwali’s blog…by the way she blocked my last comment…funny innit? Anyway, if it does go through I will put it here
I meant if it doesnt go through then I will put it here
Sure, most welcome!
/me faints
Someone get water for this guy!
Daily 100’s of plp are slaughtered in Gaza, and so as other places.
And you plp are fighting against each other?
Is it right what you are doing.
Why dont you talk on 1000s of common things you have, rather discussing those v. few different things…
Why?
This means, we have many many shias, sunnis, but sorry to say we dont have any muslim.
What are you doing reading this blog then?
Muslim, stop accusing other people. Religion is a matter between Allah and man. You have no right to come in the middle of it.
You don’t like something, don’t read it. Simple.
@ Saad: Oh bhai, don’t faint! Pani internet ke through diya nahi ja sakta!
Mr Ash, let me make something clear to you. This is MY blog. Come here at will. Post comments as you like, call me a kaafir, call me anything you want and I won’t mind.
But coming here to try and disgrace my friends and other bloggers, that I won’t tolerate. Comments meant for other people, or their blogs (unless related to me), will not be allowed here. So kindly be careful next time you comment and keep the above guidelines in mind.
Personally, I think you lack the mentality and tolerance to allow anyone’s opinions to be in contrast with those of your own. You lack the decency to not make it personal, specially when you get cornered. You should seriously go see a psychiatrist, this is my sincerest advice.
Whenever I see your name, the following thought comes to mind: Allah is the ultimate comedian!
ohooo you are getting all naraz man. I thought you both were close and you will ask her to let my comment through. That is the only reason I put the comment here. It is evident from your blog and her blogs that you two have a closeness in disguise…
anyway pal….thanks for your tip on going to mental doc…
we will both go together, lol
I am funny arent I mate? anyway…sorry didnt mean to annoy you. Its just she not letting my opinion pass through.
So from tomorrow I will start commenting on your this post and we will start the fight here…alright?
tab tak kay liye peace out
P:S good luck with your little love story….
Yes you are very funny. But God is funnier.
Dear All,
This is the first time i’m posting comments on any blog.
I am inviting your attention towards Ali Sina’s website i.e. Faithfreedom.org. Therein he has a challenge to all muslims
http://www.faithfreedom.org/the-challenge/.
I will be thankful to you all if you advise me some websites where muslims have replied to Ali Sina’s challenge.
Thanks
Dear All
Please let me know how many muslims so far have won Nobel Prize ?
LOL !!!
And how many Jews have won Nobel Prize so far ?
Remeber, they are only 1% of muslims’ population !
Interestingly Talibans ( the students) are blowing up schools ! :)) LOL :)) !!!
I’m glad you people are doing a great job by declaring each other Kafirs and I’m sure that You muslims will definitely rule the world one day
By the way i’m really impressed by the variety of ABUSES Ash has :)) Keep it up MAN !!!
Dear Muslims
I found below interesting Hadith in Bukhari, read it ane enjoy
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 492:
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/054.sbt.html
Muslim killed their own prophets son and enslaved his wife’s and children, crazy people, Mohammed favored wife aishe also went to was against ALI Mohammed son inlaw and cousin killing 20′000 Muslims, so Muslims have been killing each other since the time ISLAM BEGAN IN THE CAVE OF ARABIA.
Muslims killed their own prophets son and enslaved his wife’s and children, crazy people, Mohammed favored wife aishe also went to was against ALI Mohammed son inlaw and cousin killing 20′000 Muslims, so Muslims have been killing each other since the time ISLAM BEGAN IN THE CAVE OF ARABIA.
Tony, you cannot blame the acts of Muslims on the Prophet or Islam. The Prophet certainly did not ask for any of that.
zakir nike(lanti) basically a nibe of yazeed (lanti).
No bady says yaseed as razi tallah anha he is the first persion andf the king of laties. lock at his face like yased or saqifa members.
those who are adocating for yazid are real kafirs,imam hussain fought with him for amr bil maruf and nahi anlmunkar,those who belive in islam should curse the killers of imam hussain otherwise there iman & islam is null & void.
Agreed!
muawiya biggest asshole and zakir naik after him
Continuing the Discussion